Lance Berkman has an assload to say (Clemens, Pettitte, Wade,Valverde)

People would be paying more attention to Woody's quotes if they weren't part of the usual Allison Footer fluff-piece special.

Sure, when asked what Woody thought of Lance's comments, he disagreed. Does that = team turmoil? No. He was responding to a reporters question. Would any of these guys have gone to the press themselves and held a conference discussing Lance's comments? Doubtful.

Is Lance threatening to take over management? No.

Have you read more into it, and exagerrated the potential effect Berkman's comments could have on this team? Yes... especially given the fact that they have all collectively moved on, and the more pressing needs/issues have come to the forefront (their quest to add more starting pitching... either Prior, Lieber; Drayton's comments on Tejada... etc.).

It would be one thing if there was even one follow up story to the fluff piece saying "chemistry won't be an issue." There wasn't. MOVE ON!

 

Love Berkman as a player. Pretty sure he doesn't have as much clout with the Grocer as Biggio and Bagwell did. Seems like he did most of his kvetching regarding, or in the aftermath of Chris Burke situations. Perhaps now that Gilligan is gone for good, the Skipper will get over it and just drive in runs.

 

I think he has a no trade clause.

 

Or maybe they aren't stupid enough to compound the problem by whining to the media and instead are dealing with it internally. There is as much evidence that it's not a concern/problem as there is that it is a concern/problem.

 

So now the type of outlet matters. Would it mean more if the question had come from Peter Gammons with ESPN? That's silly. The fact is that this "fluff" article is supposed to deflect from controversy. The fact that it was mentioned at all in a "fluff" piece indicates that it is a source of concern.

Woody also indicated that Berkman's concerns are a concern for "a lot of people." This indicates that it is not something that is no big deal.

Other than retirement, when have you seen a player hold press conference? Another silly "point."

How do you know that? How do you know what temper tantrums he is pitching behind closed doors?

Really? Where did anybody say that this is a dead issue? You have a veteran starting pitcher saying that this is a concern and Lance himself saying that he plans on confronting Valverde. Seems like this is far from a dead issue.

Nobody has said it won't be an issue. This means that it may be an issue. Until we know that this is not an issue (ie Lance isn't going to issue missives to Valverde, et al), then it isn't time to move on. As long as Lance continues to say dumbass things to the media, it isn't time to move on.

Have you glossed over a potential issue? Yes. (see, I can do it too)

 

No, I'm pretty sure I've read all the articles specifically relating to this issue...and by my recollection there was two of them (and now that I'm thinkin about it I think there was another follow up piece by him either in print or an on-air interview). If there was more please show me links; I'll be glad to read them.

Because as it stands now I've seen nothing to suggest he has threatened management in anyway, nothing to suggest that he's spoken negatively of Matsui or even mentioned him his name.

 

Well, then you clearly missed some of his comments - some mentioned in this thread. Not only did he both mock Matsui for having an interpreter, he also belittled his stats - and not just in generic teams. He specifically looked up and recited his stats in the process.

 

So a reporter asks Woody his take on Berkman's comments and he says he disagrees. But nowhere does it state that he's given it too much thought. Doesn't state that he's upset with the comments or that it could create a rift in the clubhouse that could take some time to repair, etc. Honestly it seems like Woody understands Berkman's point of view even though he doesn't necessarily agree with it, he recognizes his as a franchise player and you want to make sure to address the concerns of your franchise player. That's nothing out of the ordinary.

 

Well I've looked back through this whole thread and I have not seen anything mentioned of Matsui, other than than one comment suggesting he didn't speak to highly of him. There were references to a radio interview and a podcast, but no links. And there aren't any direct quotes coming from those two sources.

Hey I'm not defending his comments at all. I thought what he said was pretty stupid...but I've moved past it after a few days...cause while it was stupid to say, he just came off like a guy foolishly speaking his mind in a public forum. He's not the first person to do it and certainly not the last. It seems pointless to continue to dwell on this and make assumptions about what's going on internally within the organization. Might as well wait till Spring Training and see how this all plays out.

 

The direct quote is:

"I told chris if you can't produce 4 homers and 37 rbi I'll go to the boss and tell them to trade you."

(Presumably after Matsui got signed but before Chris Burke was traded)

I'm not sure the direct quote of the interpreter thing, but it's been commented on by many people who heard it live. Here is a full discussion of a lot of the comments, including the interpreter stuff:

http://www.orangewhoopass.com/forums/index.php?topic=104656.0

Comments about it:


He took a jab at Matsui and his interpretor in the interview and it was very uncomfortable to listen to that.

...

I cringed the most when he said that. Not funny, even though everyone was laughing at the time. It's like being at a party and everyone is laughing at a clown at the party going off on everyone and you stand there and say to yourself "what is so funny about that? in fact, it's sad... I'm leaving". And you make some excuse to leave because you don't want to see where that train wreck is going to end up eventually.


I don't know how much I agree with that thread, but on the latter pages, they talk some about the religious aspect of the clubhouse and that Lance a big mentor to Christians on the team for many years (includes some links to articles from Christian magazines). It would explain why he never ran his mouth about Lidge's antics on the mound but might have a problem with Valverde/Matsui just not knowing them. Could be a stretch though.

 

haven't read through all this thread on berkman but seen a number of comments comparing lidge's fist pump to valverde. what??? talk about unrelated, valverde makes jose lima look tame.

watching him a few times in arizona last year, i even wanted to take a swing at him so i can only imagine what the opposing team is thinking. i don't agree with berkman calling out players like this but certainly wouldn't mind valverde toning it down a bit.

 

Seems that all these comments are things that anybody would think, but nobody would actually share, except with the closest of friends or family. I think it's natural to be a little frustrated and pissed off that teammates you've developed a bond with over the years are now gone. His statement about being traded to the Astros isn't any different than Yao's about the Rockets. It's natural to think that when a formerly comfortable situation has turned chaotic on you. The difference is that some people are smart enough not to mouth off to the media about it. And I've never been in disagreement with that; he needs to learn to choose his words more wisely, especially if he wants to be respected and seen as a clubhouse leader.

But I don't think it should be given too much attention at this point in time...I don't think he has some hidden agenda and I don't think he's trying to force management's hand. Based on the comments he's given, I think that's a stretch and the more rational and logical conclusion one could come to is that he's just putting his emotions out on his sleeve for the whole world to see, which isn't very smart. I also don't think his comments are gonna cause a rift among the team, at least right now anyways. And even if they do, even if him and Woody or Valverde or Kaz don't ever get along from here on out, I doubt that will affect the team's performance on the field. You don't have to be friends, you just have to play together...that's not too hard for professional athletes in a more individualistic sport to do. Given a chance to calm down, to get to know his new teammates, to develop a bond as a team, to get comfortable again and (hopefully) to start winning, I'm thinkin things will be fine. I could be wrong...but there's no way to tell unless you let things play out.

 

Exactly.

The only reason I jumped into this "foray" was because people were directly stating that "Lance had a sucky year last year, so he should be quiet... otherwise, if he hits well, then we don't care what he says."

I just wanted to clear up the misconception that Lance had a "bad" year last year. Yes, he wasn't himself... it likely was his worst year... and yet his numbers ended up being better than Carlos Lee (the guy people in here are saying had a "good" year by their own perception).

Beyond those facts (which are proven with actual statistical evidence), I don't feel the need to debate such finicky things as "team chemistry", or "what's going on behind closed doors"... with absolutely zero knowledge of what is actually going on in the clubhouse at any given time during the season.

Which brings me back to the overblown sentiment of "team chemistry" being a huge factor in winning baseball games. Out of all sports where team chemistry matters, baseball falls waaay down the list due to the individualistic nature of the game.

And in the end, if you really feel this team still needs a "leader", realize that Brad freaking Ausmus is the de-facto leader of this team... and has been one of the figureheads, with Biggio, for the last 3 years or so.

 

Really? Why have you gone on for pages of discussion then? You realize it is just as easy to stop posting in this thread as it is to preach to others to "move on". And as a matter of fact, you've gone into every possible tangent from Carlos Lee's season to OPS to the always popular "it just isn't important" as ways to either attempt to make your point or divert attention from the main issue at hand.

People don't like Berkman acting like a jackass. He is acting like a jackass. This is a discussion board. We are going to discuss it. No one is forcing you to keep on posting. From a guy that keep saying in all sorts of ways to "move on", you do realize you can take your own advice?

 

Not to mention the fact that in the excerpt from Nick that you replied to he admits to having zero knowlede of the clubhouse, but in other posts states as a certainty that we need to move on because the team has.

Odd. If you have zero knowledge of the clubhouse, you cannot know that the team has moved on.

 

I agree that whether he had a good or bad year has nothing to do with whether the comments are OK, but he *did* have a bad year - that was no misconception. Bad & good years are measured in relation to expectations, not other players. If Adam Everett had an OPS of 0.800 and 20 HRs - we'd say he had a fantastic year, despite it being substantially worse than Berkman or Lee. Berkman had the worst year of his career last year - unless that was what the Astros expected of him, it was a bad year.

 

I'm saying its been overblown... and it has. And going to Refman's extreme "worst case scenario" of Berkman dictating what management should and should not do, and alienating all those around him, causing massive clubhouse turmoil, is taking it too far.

Most of my prior discussion (where his performance vs. his other peers came up) was in reference to your original quote of if Berkman was "good", you wouldn't care about any of this.

 

Given the fact that players can have an "off" year from time to time... and given the fact that his "great" years have been taken for granted (since people think that last year, he "failed" as a #3 hitter, and Carlos Lee was "much" better for the entire year)... I think its important to justify that Berkman "did not live up to his own lofty expectations", rather than "he was bad."

These are expectations that Berkman created for himself... by his ultra-consistent performance over the years... which he seemed to take to another level in 2006, AFTER he signs the big deal, but while in the midst of having zero protection in the lineup. I still don't think Houstonians realize that he's put together a career that far exceeded expectations, and one that very few of his current comtemporaries can match up with (Pujols being the super-freak beyond comparison). The fact that many posts here are willing to "trade him for #2 and #3 pitchers" speaks volumes to his contributions being taken for granted.

I'm thankful that his "off" year was still better, .OPS-wise, than any year any of our other best hitters have ever had (including Tejada). He also avoided a Beltran-2005-like collapse of a year (which this team could never afford), and rebounded quite well last year after an awful start (indicating he's not necessarily washed up).

I'm also thankful that he signed his extention when he did... otherwise, he'd be out of the Astros price range (or the Astros' payroll would be more inflexible with his bigger deal).

 

None of our discussion has anything to do with that. You keep deflecting from the point at hand- Berkman acting like a jackass. The thread is titled Lance Berkman has an assload to say, not Berkman's OPS or Berkman v. Lee or Berkman v. Tejada. Those are different threads to start if you care to.

 

And you know we had already discussed this what, 3-4 pages back in this thread? Do you really think that's what I meant. I already said when I typed that, it was NOT in reference to Berkman bad-mouthing his teammates.

And if there is any ambiguity left - here it is. No. I do not feel it is OK for him to say those things if he had a better year. If you are basing, apparently, all of your rants on that - I've put all ambiguity to an end. I don't think that. No statements to read between the lines, or literally, or any other way. I do not think Berkman could say what he wanted if he had a better year. So what now?