Lance Berkman has an assload to say (Clemens, Pettitte, Wade,Valverde)

You are simply kidding yourself. Lance has not made "one semi-negative comment." He has made a stream of negative comments in multiple media appearances, both in interviews and a radio appearance.

Lance's comments indicate that he believes there is no team chemistry. That the trades that have been made make having chemistry impossible. He specifically called out a guy who had no control over being traded or who he was traded for. I suspect that he was looking for a reson to be critical of the guy that they shipped out his little buddy Burke for.

Lance has been one of my favorite Astros since he was in the minors. I was thrilled when he was available for us to draft him. I am very disappointed with his recent comments. Simply awful clubhouse leadership.

 

I guess I didn't know that some folks may not even realize that Lance has made multiple negative comments to the media. This isn't just one isolated thing. He's been saying stupid things all offseason. He has done everything from taken shots at Woody's chemistry idea to in one interview he said "everyone" didn't want Valverde, when I'm pretty sure *everyone* does not feel that way. It may come down to the fact that he is whining because his main man Burke got traded, but that is no excuse.

For a guy that is on record as saying he wants to be a clubhouse leader, and then doing idiotic interview after idiotic interview and throwing multiple teammates under the bus, he's doing an embarrassing job of it.

 

You sure about that?...

At least you recognized that he was, in fact, better than Carlos Lee last year... that's a start.

Secondly, the Astros (and the collective) are likely more worried about starting pitching, and Miguel Tejada's link to steroids than they are about what Lance Berkman has to say on a daily basis.

 

Funny. I don't recall any of his teammates going in the media and talking about our need for starting pitching or Tejada and steroids. I have seen several players disagree with what Lance said publicly.

Rather than sidestep the question, these guys found it important enough to make sure they noted their disagreement.

 

Its important to note that they all agreed that team chemistry would not be a problem... even after what Lance said... indicating its more or less a NON ISSUE. Its also important to note that this article appeared on astros.com... which is more or less the "feel good news/news for pure homers" source out there... they're not in the buisness of stirring up "controversy".

And the fact that the team is dead silet on Tejada's link to performance enhancers and starting pitching is a MUCH bigger issue... one that should warrant an 11 page thread... than "team chemistry". I guarantee you the pitching and Tejada's performance will have more to do with wins and losses than the relationship between Berkman and Valverde.

 

It is even more important to note that they were outright disagreeing with Lance on chemistry, Valverde, etc.

All that really indicates is that it is only an issue to ONE GUY...Lance Berkman. You know...the guy who has taken every opportunity he can since Burke was traded to spout off and sound like a horse's ass. Yeah, Lance is going to issue the same lunacy over and over again because it is such a non issue.

So...we are going to start having 11 page threads about things that people DIDN'T say? OK...maybe we should go to the D&D and start a thread that Oswalt didn't say that the Nazis were bad, so he must be an antisemite. You do NOT have threads about silence. You have them when somebody, especially a clubhouse "leader" goes into the media on multiple occasions and blurts out a load of crap like Lance did.

This isn't just about Lance and Valverde. Veteran guys are going to take sides on this issue. From what has been said publicly, it seems that Lance's veteran mates don't care for what he has been saying.

But why would we expect any of these guys to act like professionals.

 

You're citing one article... which featured such "veteran" teammates like Brandon Backe, Chris Sampson, and Woody Williams... who felt the moves made by Wade would help the team. This article was from 12/18/2007, and there hasn't been nary a mention of this impending "rift" that you're anticipating.

And nowhere in the article did it mention the team is "divided" by what Lance said... or would not welcome Lance back into the clubhouse.

And, as far as the other MORE IMPORTANT issues that are not being talked about... namely starting pitching, Tejada, etc... the argument is that it would be less of a waste of time discussing things that will have more of a direct impact on the team next year, rather than this supposed "escalting feud" that only seems to be escalting right here on this bbs.

 

Lance has taken a jab at Matsui and his interpretor during a press conference. He also said "I told chris if you can't produce 4 homers and 37 rbi I'll go to the boss and tell them to trade you." Those are bush league comments. And then in rebuttal to Woody talking about chemistry, he said something about chemistry is not giving up a HR in the 7th inning as a backhanded insult to him.

Lance is not showing any semblance of being a leader. Its embarrassing. If you don't have any problem with the things he is saying in the media.. I don't know what to tell you.

 

But if "he had hit 40 HR with 120 RBIs"... you wouldn't have cared what he said.

Correct?

My only concern is if the team is ready to vote Lance off the island... because if that's the case, they'll lose their best hitter. Other than that, I don't care what Lance says... because Lance says a lot of stupid stuff, and the team wins/loses regardless of what is on Lance's mind (but they do lose when Woody Williams has anything to do with holding a baseball... so perhaps you shouldn't mention him in your defense).

Overall, I don't see this being an issue for the team... and if it lingers into spring training (which is highly doubtful), that's why these teams have managers.

 

No. Not correct.

This is obviously going down the road of "its a message board argument, and I don't want to lose". You keep going off into tangets ranging from comparing him to Carlos Lee and Tejada to statistical breakdown of Lance's season to now what I said. Plus, that is out of context, at that time I was arguing simply that Lance needs to work on HIS OWN GAME before talking in the media. I obviously didn't mean that its OK to badmouth teammates - clearly that is not what I meant judging from the 2 pages of thread I've discussed with you. Do you really think that's what I meant? Give me a break. At the time the thread was talking about Lance's Burke mancrush. But regardless, none of that is even pertinent. None of it.

Here it is. Lance has said he wants to be a leader in the clubhouse. Lance then proceeded to argue with Woody Williams, a veteran player who deserves some respect, in a public forum via the media, first dismissing his idea of chemistry and then taking a backhanded swipe at him. He has dissed a teammate, Valverde, before even playing with him or meeting him (maybe they've met, can't be 100% sure). He has poked fun of Matsui's use of a translator, and then said that stupid comment about telling Burke if he can't produce at Matsui offensive rate he should be traded - which is an obvious jab at Matsui as well. Do you *REALLY* see no problem with a guy who has proclaimed he wants to be a clubhouse leader doing all this???? Really??

Like I said, if you don't.. well.. alright, to each their own. But obviously most people won't agree with you. Its bush league and not what a clubhouse leader would do.

 

So you said it, but you didn't "mean" it... got ya. You also said Carlos Lee had a better year, because he "looked" better, and Lance "failed as a #3 hitter". Are those things you didn't mean to say either? Oh wait... me bringing up flat-out wrong statements that you've made is just me "going off on a tangent." (a tangent that you've had no problem discussing/arguing).

As far as "losing" arguments... I'm pretty sure your above statements cover that for you.

Obviously, you feel passionate that this team needs a leader, and Lance shouldn't be that guy. So be it.

Me... I don't care. Who was the Boston Red Sox leader this past season? The St. Louis Cardinals are led by a manager who gets convicted for DWI's. The Yankees have a clear clubhouse leader, and yet it doesn't really help them win World Series.

And the bottom line is that Lance has been saying stuff since the first time they put a mic in front of him... that's what he does. He's been about as consistent at that as he's been with his bat.

If you honestly think Lance's comments will be a major reason why the team won't win next year, then I have no more reason to try to unwad your undergarments over this anymore.

Otherwise, get over it... and move on... I guarantee you, the rest of the Astros have.

 

All I am saying is that Lance has said that he wants to be a leader, and then does all of this. I'd say the Astros don't really have a defined clubhouse leader as of now, and I don't know if there will be one or who it will be.

Lance has not been always saying this kind of stuff though. He's always talked a lot, we all know that. But this is definitely the first time its turned to taking about his teammates. Do you really think his teammates won't remember this in the back of their minds? Woody is a professional and I'm sure its not exactly going to keep him up at night, but do you really think he'll forget? Do you think Valverde will forget that Lance said those things before he even suited up? Do you think Matsui will forget him making fun of his interpretor? Sure, the story may get lost during the season, and they are professionals so they can obviously play through it, but no way those guys forget. Its easy for the fans to forget about it. If someone said something about you though in the media, you wouldn't forget it, even if you don't mention it again. The issue in all this is that Lance Berkman is making an asshat out of himself in the media and to his teammates, nothing more, nothing less.

 

Given that nothing any of us post on here has any impact on the field, how is one topic any more of a "waste of time" than any other?

 

Haha... good one.

I do feel that correcting facts, and calling out bad opinions are actually a pretty damn good use of time... hell, that's all I've been doing here in this thread. I just don't think this topic warranted this sort of reaction.

 

You also don't even know if they need one... or if they ever needed one... you don't know a lot of things when it comes to the Astros feelings. And, Lance stating he "wants to be a leader" could just be yet another thing that Lance says. Its Lance being Lance.

God forbid... because I didn't think there would be any way possible that Woody could be worse next year. I guess this did it.

I think he already has. And if he hasn't, that's a problem. Elite closers have the shortest memories of any player in pro sports.

Did he even understand it? Did the interpreter interpret Lance making fun of him back to Matsui?

Worse things have been said about teammates through the media, by other teammates, in sports where actual team chemistry means a helluva lot more than it does in baseball... and things have turned out ok.

The fact that this isn't some quiet guy going on an unexpected rant (its Lance being Lance) simply reassures that it will be a non-issue.

The bottom line that we've all realized... don't say bad stuff about maxwellstemper in the media.

 

Yeah man, don't talk about me to the media, otherwise this will escalate to a whole other level. Anyway, we both obviously have our own opinions about this and we've pretty much beat this to a pulp. So good talk. I'll just give you an e-handshake and move on.

 

Its funny cuz to me, on a 1 to 10 scale, Berkman's comments were at a 4, but reactions are either a 1 or an 8. And its the 1 people telling the 8 people they're wrong

As mentioned in the thread, Ensberg was also a major run producer 2005.
You said who was key down the stretch (Berkman) and who wasnt (Ensberg), cuz of his injury.

So you excuse Berkman for coming in injured but credit him being key down the stretch.
And discredit Ensberg for being injured and dont acknowledge his MVP-like season.

I agree Berkman's years of service to the club gives him a little leeway on his comments. But it won't help him get exhaulted as the ONLY bat the Astros have ever had the past few seasons.

He's blowing off steam and he has feelings like any other human. But that's giving him some big time benefit of the doubt I think, to suggest Berkman has Valverde's production in mind and its about wanting him to focus on pitching....

I'm sure Berkman knows nothing of Valverdes's 2006 season. He's too stuck in 2005

You said it, Oswalt should be more pissed but chose NOT to gripe and moan publicly. Why, cuz he's a classier team guy. And we'd suspect if Oswalt did talk, itd be on matters such as improving the club, his next opponent, etc. And not in areas past that such as the behavior of his closer on the mound , its like he's somewhere else now...., the team doesn't have any chemistry (?)

Everyone is inappropriate for throwing Lance under the bus.

After Lance threw people under the bus.

If its about appropriateness we all know appropriateness is - its Lance keeping his mouth closed or being a TEAM spokesmen instead of his own PERSONAL spokemen. Now if its about the DEGREE of which fans are reacting to Berkman's comments, thats your rightful opinion and a very valid one.

 

Yep...one article, because, unlike Lance Berkman, they haven't been taking any open microphone to take jabs at teammates.

Yes, I am sure that the rest of the team has warm and fuzzy feelings about what Lance Berkman had to say. I'm pretty sure these things are bothering a lot of the guys, but they choose not to make it public.

Objection, relevance.

 

The second interview was pretty low class on Lance's part. Making fun of Matsui because he is learning English? That's just flat out lame. I would have thought Lance would befriend these guys, invite them to church and maybe dinner at his house or something.

 

I hope and pray Lance gets traded away from a descent starting pitcher.

We do not need lazy and dumb players like him on our team.

What can we get for him on the market? Does he have a good enough value to land a solid number 2? I now hate we lost Mike Lamb - we can always get a serviceable first baseman when we get to that bridge.

I do not know how I can stand watching Berkman on our team come the 2008 season. Please Wade, get 'er done.