Lance Berkman has an assload to say (Clemens, Pettitte, Wade,Valverde)

I watched plenty of games as well, and while Lance didn't have as good of a year as he had in 2006, to say he "failed" as a #3 hitter is the "asinine statement of the year" that people are finding fault with.

You want another stat that measures a hitter's overall contribution to a team? What about the Runs Created stat. It typically involves some positive value for things like hits, walks, steals, home runs, etc. and negative values for outs, caught stealing and GIDP (Basically, condensing all the "subjective" things you find fault with... strikeouts, GIDP's, and looking like a goofball on the basepaths, and finding an objective way to look at it).

In 2006, Berkman had an amazing 144... last year, 115. Carlos Lee last year? 110.

However, you saw Carlos Lee look good all year... so I guess the stats don't matter.

Lance strikes out a lot... nobody will ever debate that. Hell, his likely overall BEST year (2001) was a year he struck out 121 times. Most sluggers will strikeout a ton.... however, if Lance keeps his OBP in the upper echelon of where it has been, it still indicates that he MAKES LESS OUTS than most major leaguers. And in the end, its not like Lance is Adam Dunn with the K's... its far from his, or this team's, biggest weakness.

Precisely why the beauty of statistics in baseball exists... to take "subjective" measures, like you watching several good games of Carlos Lee, and thereby proclaiming that he had a better year. Where, in fact, every single measurable level of success (OPS, runs created, etc.) proved otherwise.

Yes, he strikes out an extraordinarily low amount for a "power" hitter... and yet his OBP (the measure of how many times he makes an out) is less than Lance's. So basically, while he strikes out less... he still hits into more outs when he's at the plate. But, I like the contact he makes in RBI situations... many of which involve Lance being on base (since he bats in front of him).

He won it because they give it based on position. If Lance played LF last year, he would have won it. And it remains true that Lance's WORST year is better than any of Carlos Lee's BEST years.

Is this another "subjective" measure? Are you now speaking for the rest of the Astros players who are going to lead a Lance backlash? Are they not going to pass Lance the ball? Are they going to point-shave? Oh wait, its baseball... where that is largely impossible, and teams with terrible chemistry (1986 Mets) go on to win titles, while teams with tremendous chemistry (2006 Astros) fall flat.

Also, its not like Lance said Valverde kills puppies... he was honest (maybe too honest) that his antics aren't well-liked around the league. And if I were Valverde, I'd be worried more about not regressing to his 2006 levels, and improving on his 7 blown saves... rather than worrying about that. Its not like he has to pitch against Lance anymore.

 

Like I said, I don't want another stat, I don't want to create one.. or whatever else there is. Berkman had a down year. And its not an asinine statement that he failed as our #3 hitter. Our offensive futility was a team effort, but Berkman's off year sure didn't help.

I'm not trying to go into the tangent of Carlos Lee, I don't understand why you keep comparing him. I think Lee played great. I think you agree that Lee was pretty good, maybe not great.. I dunno, I'm not trying to put words into your mouth either way. But regardless, this is not about Lee, Tejada, Boston's Ortiz, A-Rod, whoever you wanna throw in. I'm talking about Berkman. Berkman did NOT produce what he is expected to. Was it a great year for most hitters? Yep. Was it a down year for Berkman? Better believe it. That's still the bottom line. And that's what my point is. Always has been.

And if you honestly don't have a problem with Berkman running his mouth how he pleases in the media, then nothing I say is going to change that. He is a guy that jokes a lot, I know that. But if he is going to start heading down the road of bad-mouthing other players, its my personal opinion that there is no class in that and he should shutup. Obviously you don't agree, so to each his own. Nothing I say will change that, so..

 

If we had the talent off the 1986 Mets, I wouldn't be too concerned with our team chemistry either.

 

Tell me you aren't saying that Berkman had the type of year you expect from a $15M a year, franchise type player. He didn't. Not even close.

The other players on the team have gone on record as disagreeing with him on the chemistry issue. It is clear that he is not being accepted as a clubhouse leader. Why not? Probably because this is now a team full of veterans rather than full of young, unproven guys who would stand in line to carry Lance's jock strap. He is continuing to say very stupid things publicly. This does not make him a bad player...it makes him a bad leader.

As for Valverde's "antics"...MOST closers around the league fist pump, etc when they close out a game. Lidge did it. Wags did it. Lance needs to get over how he felt sometime when Valverde pumped his fist when he struck Lance out to end a game.

 

You're the one who said that if he had a good year, he'd apparently be OK in saying whatever he said... but since he had a "bad" year, he shouldn't say it.

I'm merely saying he didn't have a bad year... and the only reason its looked at as a dissapointment is because of the high standards he's already set for himself (and taking those standards for granted is an irresponsible thing to do... Lance is a pretty special player, but very few can maintain the pace he's been on for 10+ years).

The fact that you think Carlos Lee had a good year, but Lance a bad one, only proves my point further about the "subjectiveness" of it all... the bottom line is that Lance Berkman is still our best hitter, and deserves a tad less "overreaction" on his impact on the apparently fragile team chemistry.

 

And yet Carlos Lee, at $16M a year, did? Because Lance, when it was all said and done, had just as good (if not better) year.

Lance is a BARGAIN compared to what other lesser players are getting paid nowadays... and if he were to opt out of his contract based on last year, he'd get far more than the $15 million we're currently paying him.

And since 2004, Lance has lived up to his contract far more than say... Carlos Beltran (who's had one bad year, one solid year, and one in between)... with his team having mixed results.

My biggest fear is that the Astros are on the hook for both Lee and Tejada's contracts over the next two years... and both of those guys could be huge dissapointments (in terms of what we're "paying them to do"). I'm not all that worried about Lance.

 

OK Nick, what do you want the Astros to do then? What do they need to do to make Lance happy and explain to us how that will help us win. Lance has been pretty happy the last 2 years, all *****s and giggles with Granato and Zeirling while the team kept disappointing.

 

I've never criticized the Astros for making the moves they made... I'm criticizing you guys for going all nutty, saying "Lance is ruining team chemistry, Lance hates old people, Lance and T-mac are spanking little kids together."

Honestly, I really don't care what Lance says all that much. Lance says a ton of things... some of it motivational, some of it funny, most of it random. He didn't call Valverde a "cancer" or a terrible move... he just expressed concern about his antics.

Additionally, I don't care what Valverde does after he strike somebody out... I care about winning games. If Valverde can keep his electric stuff, while cutting down the blown saves, this team will be better off... if not, than its nothing more than a lateral move from Qualls.

If Lance feels the need to voice his concerns publicly, so be it... I'm not going to throw him under the bus, given all he's done for this team while he's been here. Its not like he's ever going to prevent a move from being made to better this team... if that were the case, Burke would have never gotten demoted last year so early.

 

Really?

Berkman .278, 34 HR, 102 RBI
Lee .303, 32HR, 119 RBI

Lee hit overe .300. Lance did not. Lee had 17 more RBI than Lance.

Lee hit .338 against lefties. Lance hit .265 against lefties.

Who, again, is the better value?

 

Lee looks fatter.

Anyways, here we go. It's the BOFs vs the LOFS.

 

This was one of berkman's worst years and he still had a better ops than lee.

 

Nick, normally I agree with you... but in this case I think you're delusional. Lance wasn't his normal self last year, and these comments he's been making are problematic.

 

Who had the clutch hits last year, Berkman or Lee. Seems like Lee had a way of coming through. And really at this point, this isn't really a conversation we should be having as Berkman didn't have a terrible year despite his slow start.

We're just not used to seeing Astros spout off to the media as it wasn't something that was tolerated in the Biggio and Bagwell era. I hope Lance can get along with Valverde, don't know why he has issues with him, it seems silly - wonder if they have some sort of history.

 

This reminds me of the argument how Bagwell never had any clutch hits in his career... because it seemed like he always failed in the big opportunity (and with nearly 500 HR's, I'm sure none of them came in a big opportunity _

A lot of attention was focused on Lee's AB's last year because he was the new guy, and this team hadn't seen consistent offense from somebody other than Lance since Ensberg's torrid April-August in 2005. Likewise, a lot of attention was focused on Lance's slump to start the year... and when things started getting in a groove for him again, people seemed to not notice (or they had lost interest, since the Astros weren't contending).

Doesn't mean Lee was the better hitter... and according to the total amount of runs created by each, Lance still contributed more.

Does it really matter if they get along or not?

Biggio HATED Larry Dierker... and it didn't stop him from playing his best baseball under him. A lot of people here thought Billy Wagner shouldn't have been shipped off for running his mouth (and what he said was far more malicious than what Berkman said). Jeff Kent certainly didn't make any best friends on this team... but it didn't stop them from going 36-10.

I honestly think the overreaction throughout this thread is ridiculous.

Yes, Lance did have a down year for Lance last year... far from his career averages. However, if you guys are now willing to say "shape up or ship out" to him because of a .900 OPS, I'm just asking you to maybe not take his god-like years since 2001 for granted.

Sometimes players do have "off" years... and in this case, we can be thankful that his off year was still slightly better than our highest paid player's best year.

 

I never said he was his normal self... I just said it wasn't a "terrible" year, and was actually still the best overall hitter on this team (OPS and Runs Created don't lie).

My main beef is the delusion that the team chemistry is a.) fragile enough to be broken down by one semi-negative comment from the first baseman to the new closer and b.) it is a vital aspect to succeeding in baseball.

Clearly, the last 2 years show that team chemistry doesn't mean a whole lot... and I'd really be curious to know what your guys' worst case scenario is about Lance vs. Valverde. Will Lance tackle him on the mound? Refuse to throw the ball back to him? Will Valverde purposely throw wild pickoff throws to spite Lance? What will really happen if these two aren't holding hands together in the dugout?

Also... just because Biggio and Bagwell said absolutely ZERO to the media, doesn't mean they weren't playing judge/jury in the clubhouse (definitely to the point of "alienating" both new and established players). They did command respect... but they also had the ability to dictate front office moves. This city already has had enough of its pseudo-GM teams... lets just be thankful that the Astros have a GM who doesn't need a commitees approval anymore before making a move.

 

That's a pretty random collection of stats you've got there... let's look at them.

Lee has 17 more RBI... he also had a guy in Berkman who got on base almost 40% of the time. You've got to have men on base to drive them in. The 3 hitters in front of Berkman included the pitcher and Craig Biggio, who was on base less than 30% of the time. Lance Berkman getting on base 250 times gave Lee alot more RBI possibilities.

Lee hit 300... but Lance's OBP was 30 points higher. I'd say that with minimal guys getting on base in front of him, Lance had plenty of ABs where it didn't matter if he got a single or took a walk (i.e., with nobody on base). Somebody had to get on base to create RBI possibilities in the first place.

And finally, Lee hit better against lefties than Lance did... duh! Lee is a righty! He's supposed to hit better against lefties! Berk is a switch hitter, and switch hitters spend most of their time hitting left handed, against right handed pitchers. And against righties (where both players got 70% of their ABs) Berkman was the superior hitter in OBP, SLG, and HR.

Look at statistics with runners on base. Berkman has 245 ABs, Lee 298! That's 53 more opportunities with men on, and Lee ends up with only 17 more RBI. With runners on base, Berkman hit .322, his OPS was .997. Lee hit .295 and had an OPS of .874 under the same circumstances. So you tell me, how was Lee the "better value"?

 

It's funny....I wouldn't be surprised if the organization and his teammates have forgotten about what he said already...but us fans are acting like he killed a bunch of puppies.


Lance said s*** like Lance does...end of story...can we all move on now?

 

Because he doesn't whine to the media and throw a new teammate under the bus before he even puts the uniform on.


I don't know when this became a who is better, Lee or Berkman pissing contest, the point is that Lance did something wrong and he's being called out for it. Nick seems to think that being a good player means you can do whatever the hell stupid nonsense you want, but I think the majority disagree. Houston is a very laid back sports town and if you are illiciting this kind of response from Houston fans, you must have done something wrong.

Something Berkman and others seem to have wrong is they are mischaracterizing what fans meant when they said they wanted Biggio and Bagwell to be more vocal leaders. Nobody said they wanted them to call out teammates in the media, the complaint was that they didn't often get vocal in the clubhouse and instead lead "quitely by example."

So Berkman still isn't doing what is expected of him. He can lament the loss of a teammate all he wants, but instead of crying about chemistry, he should be calling his new teammates on the phone or meeting them when they get into town and fostering good team chemistry. That's what a leader does. And there's no doubt that specifically calling out Valverde has more to do with him being the guy coming back in the trade that shipped Burke out and not about his "antics."


Oh my god, he's salsa dancing all over the mound

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Oh, who does he think he is, showing guys up like this?
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First of all, I was merely responding to people saying "If Lance had a good year, it would be one thing... but he didn't so he should be quiet."

Secondly, I'm not the only one who thinks the response that has come forth from most of you is exagerrated, too reactionary, and in the grand scheme of things... not that big of a deal (given the nature of how chemistry works in baseball).

Third of all, Houston IS a laid back sports down... but this board is most definitely not... and its not all that representative of Houston as a whole. That's why we're not seeing this story being updated daily on the back pages, or on the local news, or on ESPN... hell it didn't even make it to sports talk radio yesterday.

Now, I know you have a romantic idea of what Lance should be doing for Valverde (taking him out to dinner, etc.)... and if you want to criticize him for that, so be it. And while Biggio and Bagwell appeared to be the consumate professionals... and never spoke without thinking... they were far from "perfect". Again, I'm not the only one who had an issue with them having almost TOO much power in the organization... to the point of dictating front office, managerial, and player moves.

 

No no no... no one EVER said if he had a good year he could run his mouth. I never said that it would have been OK for him to say whatever he wanted if he had a good year. He should shut his mouth regardless, because its making him look like an asshat. For a guy that has said in the past he wants to be a leader on the team, he is doing a piss-poor job of it.

And the fact that he retracted his statements and apologized shows that he also realized they were in bad taste. His other teammates have disagreed with him on the whole clubhouse chemistry issue in the media. Lance is not a leader on the team at this point, even though he may be the best hitter on it.