Lakers win again!!! Shaq is still not better than Hakeem though

Then why do you keep saying that the refs have been allowing him to do it for the past 10 years, until the Sacramento series? Oops.

 

Oops is absolutely right. <shrug>

It's just something I became aware of yesterday...

 

Last I checked, grabbing someone's jersey was a foul...unless your name is Shaq.

 

I dont agree at all with those who say that Shaq is TWICE as good as he was in 95. If he was half as good in 95 as he is now how did the Magic make the finals and become a team that was considered a dynasty in the making? Because of Penny Hardaway.... Many would consider Penny half the player Kobe was (another statement I find ridiculous to even say Kobe was WAY better than Penny was).

But anyway if Shaq is so much better now why are his stats not any better than with Orlando, when Orlando HAD MORE SCORERS collectively than the Lakers have today? Yeah the game was a little higher scoring back then but the Magic had Penny Hardaway getting 21ppg, Anderson getting around 12ppg, Scott 13ppg, Hogrant with like 13ppg. Id say Shaq simply was too young to use his support well enough, and the team collectively was too young because there leaders were both 22 and under (Penny and Shaq).

If they got more time they would have won titles without any injuries, beleive me. Enough of this Kobe of now is 10 times better than Penny ever was, because I think people are too caught up in the moment and forget that Penny had as much chance to fulfill his MJ like potential as Kobe does today.

But as far as Hakeem goes, Hakeem was the better athlete. The Shaq of today would let Hakeem shoot from the perimeter even more so today than he did back in 95. And Hakeem usually toasted Shaq from the outside back then, why would it be any different today?

And don't you think Shaqs energy would be drained by actually having to GUARD A CENTER WITH POST MOVES, GREAT FOOTWORK, AND ABILITY TO HIT THE OUTSIDE SHOT? Im sorry but comparing competetion of today and then is ridiculous. The Lakers could win two more titles and it probably would not make Shaq be any greater than he really is.

Shaq is a top 5 center of all time, but to say he is clearly better than Hakeem is silly. I give Hakeem the slight edge head to head because Hakeem would make Shaq work to guard him on the outside, and if Shaq got lazy and let Hakeem shoot (like he can afford to do with any CHEAP center in todays game) then he would get burned.

Yes Shaq would get his 30, but dont make it look like Shaq is the best passer ever, and that he has improved greatly. His major advantage has ALWAYS BEEN SHEER SIZE and AND STREGNTH OVER other centers. So his ability to pass a little better is not a big of an issue as you think it is. If everyone double teams him today, all he has to do is pass it out to wide open CLUTCH 3pt shooters and Kobe Bryant....who everyone already thinks is better than MJ .



Shaq has no competetion today PERIOD. So based on that it's not fair to say he is clearly better than Hakeem, or even that Hakeem is clearly better than Shaq. But due to how Hakeem stacked up against great centers of all time I give him the slight edge. Hakeem WON a title without a Kobe Bryant type player, Shaq has never done that.

Just because Shaq can dominate today all he wants doesn't mean that hes twice the player he was, or that he is greatest ever. Shaq at 22 was more athletic and could easily dominate the NBA as it is right now in almost the EXACT SAME FASHION.


So Please, enough about all this Shaq is twice the player he was in 95........ he is smarter and has better supporting cast, against WEAKER NBA competetion, and thats all there is to it.

 

It's a big fight over something that really can never be proven by any person.

Maybe if you ask Shaquille and Hakeem about who's better/who was better/who's the greatest all time, you might actually go somewhere in this arguement.

I know the stats don't lie about both of their dominance against other Centers.

But can't we just end it in a tie.

We sort of know that Shaquille will get the "<B>Greastest Center of all-time"</b> icon from the media because of his dominance over the past 6 years. And probably the next 3 years.

They will not look how Hakeem barely outscored (<I>stats wise</i>) Shaquille in that 95' series, or who hustled more.


They'll see that Shaqulle is getting 5 men thrown at him, he's tossing them aside like baby children, and ripping down the goal posts to score. <b> THAT'S DOMINANCE, BABY!</b>

 

What team does LA play in the next ROUND?

 

Whatever teams that qualify for the McDonald's World Championship this fall.

 

I wanna be like Ritch Mitchmond and win a ring

 

-Exactly. I still think it's misleading to look simply at the stats and conclude it was a draw. For instance, look at game 2 of that series: Here are Hakeem vs. Shaq's stats at halftime (have Game 2 on tape).
Pts FG's Reb
Hakeem 22 9-17 8
Shaq 10 3-8 6

At the half, the Rockets led by 23 and the game was pretty much over. Much of the 2nd half was extended garbage time and by the end of the game Shaq and Hakeem had identical stats.

Now, if you just picked up the paper and looked at the box score you'd say "oh, they played each other evenly" But to me Hakeem had the better game because he was the dominant force when the game's outcome was actually still in doubt while Shaq was pulling a Cuttino and stat padding in a blowout.

Similarly, in Game 1, the stats may have indicated a draw, but Hakeem's last second tipin won the game for the Rockets, something the stats don't tell you.

Did Shaq play Hakeem well and do a better job on him than Ewing or DRob in 94-95? Yes, without a doubt, but Hakeem was the best player on the court in the 95 Finals. He had a bigger impact on the series than O'Neal did. For all the quotes you presented DoD, I could just as easily show the Shaq quotes where he claimed that Hakeem "dusted his butt and embarassed him" in the Finals.

There's no doubt that Shaq will be regarded among NBA experts as the "Greatest Center Ever" The NBA marketing guys have been all over him ever since he entered the NBA and ditching Orlando for LA has put him in the limelight like he wanted. But I'll never buy it. Hell, I recently saw an article stating that Shaq had more post moves than any Center ever, which is simply a joke. The hype has really gotten incredible.

I know that back in the days when Shaq actually had to guard someone of quality, he often gave up more than he threw down.

 

"I know that back in the days when Shaq actually had to guard someone of quality, he often gave up more than he threw down."

Well it sounds like to me you could be talking about our franchise too
Hopefully he can become no more dominant and lead us to 3 titles.

 

Did Shaq play Hakeem well and do a better job on him than Ewing or DRob in 94-95? Yes, without a doubt, but Hakeem was the best player on the court in the 95 Finals. He had a bigger impact on the series than O'Neal did.

Who cares? Why do people insist on comparing an Olajuwon with 10 years of experience (including a title) with a Shaq in his 3rd or 4th year?

I love the "but he can't shoot" argument. I guarantee you if Hakeem had the strength and power to get dunks every time, he would have never learned to shoot fadeaway jumpers either. A 60% FG from 2 feet is always a better choice than a 50% FG from 10-15 feet. Hakeem would be more streaky naturally -- you're not going to go into a slump from 2 feet out. Hakeem developed those outside moves because he had to.

Hakeem was dominant, but his strength was that he was incredible on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor. If both were in their primes, Offensively, Shaq would destroy other players far more effectively than Hakeem every time. Hakeem has admitted as much. Defensively, Hakeem would win.

Keep in mind that double teams could effectively shut down Hakeem offensively if they were aggressive enough (Seattle's zone). Random scrub players could also give him fits occasionally. There's no one that bothers Shaq, really -- not even two or three people at times.

 

Shaq couldn't stop Dream in that series even a little bit. Dream was dropping hooks, dotting his eye with jumpers, and spanking him with fadeaways all day long. Realistically, Shaq right now is probably worse equipped to stop Dream than he was years ago. He's not any quicker that's for sure and his experience hasn't exactly made him a better defender in this league. A '95 Dream would still rip this guy to shreads on the offensive end IMHO. With Shaq actually having to guard someone I don't think we'd see him getting 35/game like he did against the Nets, not to mention Shaq wouldn't be getting those idiotic ghost foul calls like he did against the Kings/Nets. I think some of you don't realize how dazzling Dream was in 95. The only way to stop him then was to beat him up with big scrubs because if you put a star big man on him he was going to light him up.

 

-Funny that Shaq couldn't destroy D Rob in 99 or 00 (when D Rob was way past his prime) at near the level that Hakeem did to D Rob in 95 in his prime. I'll ask again: Where is Shaq's dominance against the San Antonio Spurs the past 3 postseasons? Keep in mind the Spurs are the only team in the NBA right now aside from LA with a great bigman. Do Duncan, Rose, and D Rob not contain Shaq well? If not for Kobe playing like MJ against the Spurs the past 2 postseasons, LA has only one ring. When Shaq has to actually play D against a quality Center like DRob or Duncan, his offensive game is still good, but it's not near the dominance he displays against scrub centers. Being as huge as Shaq is, it drains some of your energy to actually have to defend.

-As for Seattle's zone, it's a lot easier to triple team a guy immediatedly (which is what Seattle did to Hakeem every time) when you have a supporting cast of Maxwell, Smith, Horry, etc as opposed to THE best guard in the NBA in Kobe Bryant. Shaq has had the luxury of playing with a great guard alongside him. Teams can't triple Shaq because they know Kobe will explode if they do.

 

-Funny that Shaq couldn't destroy D Rob in 99 or 00 (when D Rob was way past his prime) at near the level that Hakeem did to D Rob in 95 in his prime. I'll ask again: Where is Shaq's dominance against the San Antonio Spurs the past 3 postseasons?

I don't recall Hakeem fighting off TWO 7-footers either against San Antonio. Shaq didn't play against Robinson. He played against Robinson and Duncan (Samaki Walker doesn't need to be really focused on...). And if I recall correctly, his *team* is 8-1 against them in the playoffs the last two years? I was always under the impression that the goal was to win rather than simply rack up stats. If you're being surrounded by the Spurs only big men, the *smart* play is to pass the ball off to other players who can then get easy open looks. And that's exactly why they dominated.

If not for Kobe playing like MJ against the Spurs the past 2 postseasons, LA has only one ring.

Maybe he played so well because they focused all their effort on Shaq...

-As for Seattle's zone, it's a lot easier to triple team a guy immediatedly (which is what Seattle did to Hakeem every time) when you have a supporting cast of Maxwell, Smith, Horry, etc as opposed to THE best guard in the NBA in Kobe Bryant.

Have we already forgotten Drexler? I would take, as a threesome, Drexler, Cassell, and Horry over Fisher, Fox, and Kobe.

 

Teams do not double Shaq the way they doubled Dream. Seattle had guys running to Dream on the catch. It was not the passive, wave an arm at Shaq double team the Nets used. Seattle rotated on defense better than any team. The Nets doubled, but stopped when the Lakers hit a few threes. Seattle doubled the whole series and banked on the fact that the Rockets would not shoot a high percentage for the whole game/series. If the Rox had a hot quarter, they still doubled.

The bottom line is that in his prime Dream was unstoppable. It has been 7 years since the title run and people have forgotten. Just as Shaq is now being mentioned with Wilt, Russell, and Kareem, Dream was put in that class in 1994-1995. If the Lakers don't win the title for the next couple of years, the talk of Shaq as the best center ever will die down.

Anyone who can say that Dream was not this dominate in the title years needs to go back and watch the playoffs from 1995. Shaq was unstoppable the last 6 games of this years playoff, but in the first 13 (?) games, he averaged about 24 a game. Good numbers, but not dominating. To average 36 pts and 13 reb/game against Todd MaCullough, a rookie, and a 6'8'' PF, is a lot different than going for 36 and 17 against the defensive player of the year and MVP, and then putting up 32 pts/game on Shaq. That was about as dominant of a 10 game span as I have ever seen. Ask David and Shaq.

 

Hakeem had a larger load. His bud Clyde was already declining.

For all that talk about Kobe not being the best player ever, an equal load should be on Shaq as well. They're playing together. And they've moved beyond the scoring contest and are willing to allow the other guy score more if it will win the game.

The competition today doesn't really allow Shaq to test his limits. Once/if Yao or some new 7" center phenom ever reaches his peak, Shaq will probably have retired by then...

 

"Hakeem had a larger load. His bud Clyde was already declining."

It's funny on this board at times how every says we had so much tlaent on our Championships teams that there is no way Chicago could have beat us.
But when it comes time to prop up Dream all of a sudden it is Dream and 11 scrubs won the title.

Major is right Shaq is more Dominanat than Dream. Dream may have been a better all around player but if that is the case then most people should be saying Joe Dumars (who was a great all around player) was better than Isiah. It just isn't so.

 

Why don't we compare the Shaq of then to the Shaq when he peaked, in my opinion, in '99-'00:

'94-'95: 29.3 pts, 13.2 rebs, 2.4 blks, .583 fg%
'99-'00: 29.7 pts, 13.7 rebs, 3.0 blks, .574 fg%

What makes it a poor comparison? How can you say that Shaq is that much more "dominating" now than he was then? I concede that Shaq was a better player in 2000, but was he so much better that if those finals were replayed 5 years later, he would've gotten the better of Hakeem?

I don't make the "he can't shoot" argument, except for free throws. But I think you're not entirely right about Hakeem -- Hakeem COULD get dunks everytime, and that was how he used to score the majority of his points. He WAS physically dominating, not to the extent of Shaq, but not that far off. I think he learned to shoot because, well, he thought it was fun. He used to always talk about being a small forward in a center's body....he WANTED to learn to shoot, he didn't HAVE to.

You could've just stopped after "Hakeem was dominant"....as far as Shaq 'destroying' other players more effectively if both were in their primes, I refer you back to the stats posted above. As far as what Hakeem "admits", Shaq has said many times that Hakeem is the best center to ever play -- do you put any stock in that?

I don't know about this 'random scrub players' giving him fits....he was arguably the best defensive center to ever play, so I don't think too many guys were giving him fits. It's funny that you say that Hakeem could occasionally be shut down, and then mention that it was a ZONE that did it. Are you saying that he could be shut down with illegal defense? He is human, ya know. A couple of things -- one, Seattle wasn't just a double-team, they triple-teamed him. The reason they were so effective in '96 against Hakeem was a couple of things: 1) His health, and 2) the team's health/inability to hit shots. If you'll remember, Seattle's defense posed no problem for him in the '93 playoffs. A major difference is that nobody could hit a shot in '96, which made collapsing on Hakeem effective.

 

NO ONE could've taken that team to a title -- not Jordan, Shaq, Chamberlain, Bird, Magic, etc. That's why Hakeem is the best ever. He HAD to dominate EVERY NIGHT, or his team could not win. Shaq does not face that same predicament.