If there's one thing the Bulls seem to lack, it's a shooter. They have athletic players, yes, but outside shooters, not really. I don't know what their cap space is like now, but maybe they could use Walt. He'd be another stop-gap veteran for a team that has finally made a few decent moves toward, well, if not respectability, at least non-laugh-at-ability. Or I'm just hoping someone will relieve our cap burden/small forward glut.
Okay, apparently I've missed something here. What's the history with Denver & Mercer? As far as us wanting Willis, he'd be the perfect compliment to MO's game. While MO's game is more of a finese type, Willis would be the banger down low. If the Rocket's coaches want LaFrentz bad enough & we're able to get rid of Cato, then what if Cheaney or McCloud were substituted for Willis? If none of the scenarios that have been proposed in this thread are acceptable to you, then what would you (as the GM of Denver) do? Would you just stand pat or would you look to make some moves? It's obvious that we want LaFrentz. What would you want to part with him? Let's negotiate.
Rox, They have about $2.6 mill in cap space & no exceptions left. Walt would probably be considered by Chicago, because they have indicated that they would like to mix in some veterans to go with their youth movement.
basically when he was traded, he and issel left on poor terms. he and mccloud got into a fist fight when we visited orlando and mercer was on the magic. i know why youd want willis...what i meant to say is being that a huge reason why the previous deals wont work is that we are giving up a big man in raef, when we are small to begin with...so when you throw in willis, it makes it that much more impossible. if chaeney were replaced, then yes - thats better. if i were GM, of course id turn down these deals. id rather let raef walk but i know i could get better offers. why would we want all those useless contracts? might as well save money for posey or something. if you want raef and a trade had to be done (like raef says i want to goto houston but wants a sign and trade for more money) AND a 3 way could not be done AND any player with value on your team is untouchable (francis, mobley, mo, griffin), then id tell raef to walk. what other option would we have? i suppose KT and a first or something as a last resort, but this is not the case.
You know, I just realized that with Chicago pretty much out of cap, as well as Detroit, we are THE team that has cap room to help out others in three way trades. Also, I think Chicago actually wants to shed some players, they have a lot of contracts, not bad ones, just a large quantity. I can't see us getting Willis as well, which I'd be ok with. Based on this, perhaps something like Cato/Drew obligation to Chicago Miller/Collier/#1 pick from Houston to Denver Raef/TAW/Bagaric or Voskuhl to Houston I'm thinking send McCloud to Chicago as a shooter as well. Or perhaps involve Shandon or Walt.
So, are you saying that Raef is untouchable, unless he demands to go to Houston? Since you didn't specifically make a counter proposal, was the KT/future #1 pick for LaFrentz an acceptable trade in your opinion? What would the "or something" be? We want LaFrentz. Let's negotiate.
uh...how did you come up with that conclusion? re read what i wrote. im saying because raef isnt demading to goto houston, we dont have to trade him and if we do houston, has no trade value (you guys are the ones who label all your good players as untouchable...i would even trade mcdyess if the deal was right whereas 99% of rocket fans would say no if someone said 'would you trade francis for...' without even hearing who the trade was for). what do you guys expect to get in trade if you wont trade anyone whos even decent? the kt/pick proposal would be acceptable IF (1) raef would NEVER resign with us and (2) he would ONLY want to play in houston. aka. not going to happen.
Apparently, you & I aren't on the same page. I never said anyone was untouchable. However, I will now say that Francis & Griffin would be considered almost untouchable. Now that, that's been settled, let's have some fun & negotiate. We want Raef. What do you want in exchange for him. Are there any players on another team that you want? Maybe we can get them involved in a 3 or more team trade. Make me a trade proposal.
Okay, NugzFan, I have to get in on this. I have a deal and tell me what you think of it. Mo Taylor and the trade exception to Denver for LaFrentz. I don't think it's fair to even try to offer jabronis like Cato and Collier. Mo is good, but I think that in another year, Kenny Thomas will really do the job at the 4 spot. He just needs to be given the chance.
i said "you" as in rocket fans in general. of course there are players on other teams id want. id say any deal that gives us either a decent big man in return (to replace raef) or some nice 3 or picks with value. i mean we give up raef...we should get something in return that we could use. you guys offer only players we cannot. thats a key point.
no because i think raef is better than mo (i goto u of m ) and raef is certainly a better center than mo is. rather go with dice/raef and willis off the bench than dice/willis with mo off the bench.
I have a couple of ideas, but I first need someone to calrify something...IS trading Mo Taylor a possibility? I mean, I know his FA situation predicates that he might have to agree to a S&T if he wants market value and we're not willing, but wouldn't that be percieved as us screwing him? Hasn't he shown "loyalty", which can be construed as having reached some sort of understanding? And, if there is ANYTHING to that, wouldn't turning around and trading him runi our reputation with players and agents around the league? Cause if not, I might be able to envision a scenario where we could get La Frentz and Dale Davis, and give up Mo, Cato, KT, Shandon, etc... This would allow DD to play PF until Griffin grows into it, and spell LaFrentz at 5 against bangers...oh, I'm getting ahead of myself... By the way, Toronto has stated that they are overloaded at 5, they've now got 6 or so of them, and a couple of the guys they are looking to move are intriguing...Mamadou N'Gie, to me, has very interesting potential, and, unlike Cato, a hard work ethic...people who've seen him play say he has similar yet better potential to Nazr Mohammed this time last year...Oh, and I think the Raps are just looking to unload, so he'd come suoper-cheap...any thoughts?
Contrary to appearances, I am not dyslexic, just can't type..I'm a confirmed hunter-pecker, which means I only see what I've typed after I look up..and often miss things by then...My apologies, but maybe reading my posts makes for a fun parlor game, ages 8-12...
Okay, let's forget all the speculation from the past & start with a clean slate. I have an open mind as to trade scenarios. I want Raef, if he's available. So, the first question would be: Is he available or off limits? Every player is available on the Rockets, with the understanding that Francis & Griffin will require an offer that knocks my socks off, to pry them away from us & MO/Shandon would have to agree to any sign & trades. You mentioned that, "any deal that gives us either a decent big man in return (to replace raef) or some nice 3 or picks with value", would do. Give me some specific names, either on the Rockets or some other NBA team, that you feel will improve your team & encourage you to trade LaFrentz to us. The only condition would have to be, that you feel the player or players are available for trade & of course, the salaries will have to fit within the CBA.
I don't think trading Mo is a possibility, however; all the other deals that were being proposed to NugzFan were really unfair if you think about it. Nobody in their right mind would want Collier or Cato and to a lesser degree Shandon, Moochie, and Langhi. At least not for a player who is a blossoming star in LaFrentz. The way I look at it is if you want something good then you better be prepared to give up something that will be hard to give up. I'm not saying that Mo is a bad player, although I wish he would rebound better for a 4 but at least Griffin will cover him in that respect. It's just that I feel Kenny Thomas could give the Rockets so much more if he's given the opportunity. He played great his Rookie year, but he sorta hit the wall last year. However, he can score down low, shoot the 3, and most importantly, rebound & he does that with enthusiasm. He can also play the 3 spot. I guess just like with Cato, we'll never know how good he can be if he is not given the opportunity.
NuggsFan: How about this: Could you give us on what you percieve to be the roster situation for the Nuggets to be? I.E. who are the guys they'd like to get rid of, what are they trying to accomplish, what pieces they need and which are redundant? In otherwords, give us the lowdown so we can begin to formulate a reasonable scenario.
Since I have less of a stake in either HOU or DEN, let me give it a try: Denver's core is McDyess at PF, Van Exel at PG, and arguably Posey at SF or SG. Key bench contributors are Kevin Willis at C, George McCloud at SF, and Avery Johnson at PG ... all veterans intended to help the team win now (Van Exel is no longer young, and Issel is under some pressure to produce results). What they need is a capable starting C and a consistent scorer at SF/SG to pair with Posey. LaFrentz is, IMO, not part of the core because he's not big enough to thrive at C and not as good as McDyess at PF. Nevertheless, LaFrentz is a starter-caliber player -- and as such, he is their key tradeable asset (i.e., the asset that can be used to solve one of their major needs). Other, less valuable players that could be included in a trade include inadequate SGs Voshon Lenard, Calbert Cheaney, and Tariq Abdul-Wahad (all in the "please take them" category). Young "projects" who may or may not be available for dealing include SF Ryan Bowen, Cs Aleksandr Radojevic and Dan McClintock, PG Omar Cook, and whatever Ousmanne Cisse qualifies as. As you can see, there's not a lot of tradeable value beside Raef, so there's no point in dealing him <i>unless it resolves a major need</i> ... and not in the sense of "Hey, he could be your starting C someday" -- it has to be someone who makes them a better team now. So if you're Houston and you're not ponying up at least Griffin or Mobley, you're wasting your time.
Why would you want your center shooting 3's? How perimeter oriented can a team be? I like Lafrentz and Jackson. Both can contribute for for this team. Both played on bad teams so people will say their stats are inflated. When Jackson started, he avg 16pts 9 reb on 49% shooting, someone tell me whats wrong with that? Lafrentz avg 13pts 7 reb on 47% and 2.3 blocks, there's nothing wrong with that either. The question is which one helps your team the most. While everyone wants to equate shot blocking to good defense, all those years Dikembe played on Denver, they were one of the worse defensive teams in the league. When Zo was blocking shot in Charlotte, they were one of the worse defensive teams in the league. Can anyone remember Chicago's shot blocking center that made them one of the best defensive teams in the league with Paxson and Luc Longley on the floor. Defense is team wise, not shot blocking. Its true you can gamble more with an eraser behind you, but that sometimes takes you out of the team help mode. Everyone is in agreement that both Jackson and Lafrentz are better than Cato-Collier combination. I just would rather have a guy who can muscle up, post up, and rebound as opposed to having my center out playing like Bill Lambier.
In order to get Raef, the Rockets would have to dump Cato on a team with capspace(not many), and preferably get a swingman from a team with a plethora of them ie: Indiana. Then you could offer up something like Harrington, Collier, and KT or a future 1st. Denver might bite on that deal. They're also in the market for another shooting guard, but from what I've heard, they feel Posey is more of a 2 than a 3, so it's not that much of a concern. A 3rd team HAS to be involved to get it done though, because all we can offer Denver are players that are either redundant or not of much value to them.
