LA Times: Rockets going after Brent Barry aggressively

Yes but only if the parameters expanded to Rox taking their choice of (superfluous) 5s. IMO

If Rox take Potapenko or Booth with TE then Sonics likely to talk turkey for BBarry and/or Lewis. IMO

 

Trading MoT for a can of diet coke will be a good trade. It does not mean that Mo does not have a decent game as a back up PF. The simple fact is that this guy is over paid by approximately 5 million. So if you trade MoT for a can of coke, you gain 5 million and 75 cents.

 

No freakin' way!

 

tmac is a 2 on this for reasons:

1>he would be played off of at the 3 spot ala what happen with pippen here and not scoring enough as some would thought.tmac pt percentage would go down even more.

2>his height causes matchup problems on defense and offense

JJ is a good enough 3 for us he moves well without the ball and is a good enough spot up shooter.tmac can do that as well but we need him to do more than just to stand there for the spot up jump shot.jj bein 6 6 and tmac bein 6 8 can switch up if needed to gaurd bigger sfs.

i hope i make sense

 

Also, when you're a swing player who posts up as much as T-Mac does, it makes more sense for him to post up against a 6'5 SG then a 6'9 SF

 

Assist is a product of THAT particular player. Not just a system. Check Pippen's career assists. Same with Jordan. Both excellent passers.

Fisher isn't a "bad" passer. He's just not that good at it. Not like Barry, Snow or Arroyo. Fish is a good spot up shooter and shows a lot of hustle. But he just doesn't have the same amount of passing skills that other PG have shown.

BJ Armstrong is a good example. No matter where he played, he was a low assist guy (3.3 carreer; 4.9 best year; regardless of the system he played in).

 

The discussion about T-Mac being at SG or SF is pointless. He's going to get the other teams best perimiter defender that matches up best against him regardless of what the announcer says his starting position is.

On defense, he will guard whoever Van Gundy tells him to guard regardless of what position he is announced at.

Passing shouldn't be a debate either...how hard is it to lob it down low or make a bounce pass to Yao? How about a chest pass to Mcgrady or Jim Jackson. It's not like our new PG is going to be the guy that has to penetrate the defense and pitch it to the open man every time. Were Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell "great" passers?

 

Do you really think other teams will send their "6'5 SG" to guard T-Mac instead of their "6'9 SF" ?? Especially with JJ as your three. PG, SG, SF -- 1, 2, 3 -- who cares? It's just a number, they're all interchangable and have no bearing when playing defense. The defense will matchup with who they see gives them the best chance. Just because McGrady's a 2, doesn't mean a 3 won't guard him.

 

Weren't the bounce passes to Yao a huge problem last year? He's too tall for bounce passes!

 

So you're telling me that it just so happens that every single point guard who's run the Triangle under Phil Jackson happens to be the "particular" kind of player who gets low assists? And that Payton's drop in assists last year had nothing to do with the system?

I don't buy that. See below for the reason why.

Exactly. Like I said in my post, "generally the POINT GUARD doesn't get a ton of assists in the triangle offense." I didn't say that the other players don't get assists.

But don't take my word for it. Study the triangle offense.

Here's what J.A. Adande said about the triangle last month:

The triangle never required the traditional point-guard skills of dribble penetration. It's based on passing and spacing, often leaving the point guard to stand and wait for a pass and take a jump shot. It worked well for John Paxson in Chicago and Derek Fisher in L.A., but not for Payton.

How many times did Paxson and BJ Armstrong hit that baseline jumper? Millions -- because the system usually dictates that the point guard make a pass to the 3 and then find an open spot.

It's the 3, who makes the second pass in the triangle, who often gets the assist.

Another common play in the triangle is the big man clearing out for the 2 guard to post up -- think Jordan hitting Paxson on the baseline for three. Again the point guard doesn't get the assist.

Check out this excellent article (with diagrams) about the triangle. You'll see that the 1 (the point guard) usually ends up in the corner spotting up for a jumper and that the 3 is often making the pass that leads to a bucket. Not always, but much of the time.

If you think Fisher's a bad fit for the Rockets and is a lousy passer, fine. But don't say that the triangle has zero effect on a point guard's assist totals because that's just not true. Look at the diagrams in the article above and you'll see.

 

I'm NOT saying that the triangle doesn't have an effect. What I'm saying is that FISHER, specifically, does not show strong passing skills. This is based on my view of him and the experience I've had analyzing his game over the years. If he was to go to another team he would still average around the same assist. He's just not that kinda of PG. Never will be.

BJ Armstrong left the Bulls. And he STILL had similar amount of assist. He didn't suddenly become a great passer just because he changed teams. Either you know or don't know how to be creative on passing. Fish doesn't. That's just the way it is.

Nash, on the other hand *knows* how to pass. Same with Kidd. Same with Hinrich. Same with Marbury. No matter what team they go to, their assists wont change much. Their passing skills are inherent. Sure, Phil's triangle would affect these players assist some. But not to the extent that you wouldn't SEE those skill performed time to time. I just don't see it with Fish. Never did.

And I've seen a lot his games BEFORE Phill got to the Lakers (Chick Hern fan) and Fish was the point. He was a good shooting PG. Decent at passing. But nothing like Arroyo, Snow or Jones.

I didn't say "zero effect." See my original quote...

"Assist are a product of THAT particular player. Not JUST a system." Fish would not average 6-7 apg even if he went to the Kings. He just doesn't have Bibby passing skills. Never will.

P.S. I feel that Fish would be welcomed on this team. But not as a permanent solution at point. I'd say that he has about 2-3 good serviceable years left. More years as a bench player.

 

I know that we're going to hear & read about all kinds of trade rumors this off season, but it would seem that Houston needs to close on Barry quickly. Otherwise, Denver might just swoop in & scoop him up. At least, according to this Seattle Times article.

Seattle Times

Notebook: Free agent Barry's preference is Sonics

By Percy Allen
Seattle Times staff reporter

Brent Barry talked about his Sonics past and future as if they were intertwined, and only once during an afternoon conversation a couple of days ago did he sound as if he were at a crossroad in his NBA career.

"I just don't know what's going on at this point," said Barry, an unrestricted free agent whose agent, Arn Tellem, can begin talking with the Sonics and the NBA's 29 other teams today. "I'm nervous, excited and anxious at the same time.

"I haven't had any contact with people. Arn has heard some things, but officially I can really start seeing what's out there (today)."

Barry reiterated his desire to remain in Seattle, where he has spent the past five years in his nine-year NBA career, which has included stops with the Los Angeles Clippers, Miami and Chicago.

But he will explore free-agency options and will almost certainly speak to Denver, which has roughly $23 million in salary-cap room and seeks a long-range sharpshooter who can play both guard positions.

Nuggets general manager Kiki Vandeweghe has coveted Barry for years, and Denver has targeted Barry, along with New Jersey's Kenyon Martin and San Antonio's Manu Ginobli, according to league sources.

The Spurs likely would be suitors if they lost Ginobli, and Boston, Golden State and Philadelphia are other possible destinations for Barry, whose ability to shoot (he was second last season in three-point field-goal accuracy) and direct a team have made him a hot commodity.

Barry adroitly completed the crossover from shooting guard to point guard without a decline in productivity. And despite missing 29 games because of a broken right hand, he made slight improvements from the previous season in his scoring (10.8 points per game vs. 10.3) and assists (5.8 vs. 5.1).

He indicated that he would welcome a chance to return to shooting guard. He also said the chance to play for a contender isn't a determining factor in his decision.

"Who knows if those options are going be available?" he said. "In all of my conversations with Rick (Sund, Sonics GM) and with people in Seattle, I've always said I like to be around to see a player develop.

"There's a lot of twists and turns and luck involved with winning a championship, and whether or not we get to the top of the mountain, who knows."

Barry said he would like to have a deal in place before July 14, the first day teams can sign players to a contract.

"I talked to Rick a couple of times and certainly, the door is still open to come back to Seattle. I'm hoping so. Maybe we could get something done sooner rather than later."

The two sides broke off contract talks in February and Barry described the discussions as amicable. It had been widely reported that the Sonics offered a three-year, $18 million deal, but Barry strongly refuted those reports.

"That deal was never been on the table," Barry said. "That deal has never been offered. Never. It's not something I want to get into, but I heard about that offer and that's not true. They offered a couple of different deals that didn't reach that number."

Barry was noncommittal when asked if he would accept a similar deal.

To sign Barry, the Sonics could use all or a portion of their mid-level exception, which is expected to be valued at $5.5 million, as well as the million-dollar exception.

Barry, who will turn 33 in December, also dispelled another misconception, one that insinuated he would only grudgingly give up the starting point guard position to second-year player Luke Ridnour.

"I have no problem with that," said Barry, who has been a fixture in the starting lineup for four of the past five seasons. "He's gonna be ready. How soon? Who knows? It's his position. Like I said to Luke, it's a matter of time."


Note


• Ray Allen, who is entering the final year of his contract and will become a free agent in 2005, retained agents Lon Babby and Jim Tanner of the law firm Williams & Connolly in Washington, D.C., to represent him.

The decision to hire agents could suggest Allen will soon begin contract extension talks with the Sonics and that he believes negotiating an extension won't be as simple as he initially believed. In 1999, he represented himself when he signed a six-year, $70.9 million deal with Milwaukee.

Because the Bucks promised to give him the maximum salary, Allen did not want to hire an agent and have the usual 4 percent of the deal extracted from the gross. He saved more than $2.8 million in fees.

Receiving another maximum-level extension will be difficult for Allen, who turns 29 this month and will earn $14,625,000 next season. He can sign a five-year extension for $100.5 million.

Last year, Philadelphia's Allen Iverson and New York's Stephon Marbury — chosen in the 1996 draft with Allen — each signed a four-year, $76.7 million contract extension.

 

Well, this is what you said:

You're right, I glossed over the word "just" when I first read your post. But it still sounds to me like your MAIN point is that the triangle has nothing to do with Fisher's assist total -- because you emphasized "that" in your original post.

Because you go on to say:

As if that proves that it's not the system. But I showed that the triangle actually explains why the 2 guard and the small forward might get more assists than the point guard.

As for arguing whether or not Fish is a great passer, that's fine. I even tend to agree with you for the most part (but not entirely) on that. I just think that's a separate argument -- observing Fish's skill at passing vs. just looking at the numbers (which I don't think tell the whole story in this case.)

However, I think that even a Nash or a Marbury wouldy see a pretty significant drop in their assist numbers in the triangle. I don't care how great they are at passing -- they're just not going to get a lot of assists camped out on the baseline waiting for the 3 or the 2 to kick the ball out to them. But I agree their numbers wouldn't drop to Fish/Kerr/Paxson levels because those guys aren't the passers that Nash/Marbury are.

Did you read that article about the triangle, by the way? It was pretty interesting.

 

according to the article above barry wants to go back to SG. So im thinkin he may not want to go to houston.

 

Doesn't matter. The Rockets are gonna sign Fisher as their starting point guard. This makes the most sense. He's a JVG-type player.

 

Exactly!

Sometime I feel that Phil likes PGs that do not have a ton of passing skills. He seem to prefer the prototype PG like BJ, Harper and Fish. All good shooters, but do not posses great PG skills. If Nash (7-9 apg) was to go to the Lakers and his assist dropped to say, 3-4 per game. That would be significant. As you said, I don't see that happening. But if Fish was to move to the Kings, he would not average more assist than Bibby (7). No way.

As far as the Bulls Pip and Jordan...

Pippen and Jordan could pass accurately and create opportunities for others because they were GREAT PLAYERS. Not because the system allowed them to "see those passing opportunities." They saw these openings themselves! It was a knowledge that was inherent to them! Not just the system. Check out Pippens assist numbers in Houston and Portland (5.9); no triangle. Jordan was still able to get over 5 apg (one year) in Washington. No triangle. They just had good passing skills. Even for today's PG standards!

By the way, the other reasons that Pip and Jordan would have a lot of assist is because they had the ball in their hands a lot (great players usually do). And they would draw the double-team...allowing a opportunity to pass. This is just fundamental basketball. Not the triangle. They were just good passers. Plain and simple.

Yes, I read the triangle link. I like it. But it's very complex for most. Very few teams have used it exclusively. Jordan even broke the rules to Phil's dismay.

 

Absolutely. And factor in Fisher's worst season was last year--that is much more important than their chronological age. Much greater chance we won't get production out of Fisher.

I like both guys honestly, for the right price. Barry for 3 year max MLE, no problem. More years, that gets hairy.

If Barry won't work, 2 year close to max MLE deal for Fisher WITH A TEAM OPTION after the first year is Ok. If he wants a 3 years of guaranted money--about 1/2 the MLE (8 mil) no more.

If these guys balk go for those kinds of salary look or Alston, Daman Jones, Arroyo, or trade.

Though Barry is really the only one from a different mold, none of the FA PG/combo guards out there are in any position for the Rockets to feel like they have to overpay.

 

You were all also happy about having pike on the same court w/ yao b4 last season, but JVG and Pike wasted that chance, hopefully he doesnt mess up Brent Barry's production if we get him.

 

What is this comumnist talking about here? The Sonics can sign Barry withh out touching their MLE.

 

Crash, I'm no expert on this, but I think it has to do with him becoming an unrestricted FA. Since SEA is over the cap, they can't offer him anything but their MLE, but they can match any other team's offer. Perhaps the true experts, Gater or AElliott can weigh in here.

The strategy, just as Phoenix did with Nash, MIA did last year with Odom, is to offer something you think they don't want to match. So, we offer the full MLE for FOUR years, not 3, and we offer SEA our TE for 3 years, and give them a draft pick. SEA has to decide, do they want to be giving Barry over 7 mil when he's 36, or let Houston have him and at least get a draft pick out of the deal? The only teams that can hurt us in this strategy are ones like Denver who can offer more than the MLE. But, I doubt that Denver will go over 6.9 mil. HOU is positioning themselves as shrewdly as they can on this, and this is an example of how the TE enhances our ability to get a player. HOU is either offering 26 mil over 4 years, or 23.7 mil over 3 years, if the MLE is calculated at 5.4 mil. <i>(edit: looks like they are going with the 5 mil figure, ending up with 24 mil, as Gater illustrated in another thread. This makes sense ... basically either deal is about 24 mil, whether over 3 or 4 years.)</i> The decision for SEA doesn't become pay him the extra year, or let him walk, it becomes pay him max MLE for 4 years or get a 1st round draft pick. It makes them let him walk more appealing.

Unfortunately, this summer appears to be a seller's market with FAs. You only overpay guys if you think he's a final or critical piece to your team. You aren't just paying more than the player is worth, you are paying to get "the team," at its maximum potential.

If SEA takes the draft pick, then we still can use our MLE on one or two other players, although it'll put us up in luxury tax territory. But, it gives us maneuvering room to add to the team.