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LA Times Poll Majority in US Not Convinced Iraq War Necessary

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Dec 18, 2002.

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  1. Refman

    Refman Member

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    I'd like to see us help too...but help how? I don't think we'll be pumping tons of cash into it. That equation has proven to be ill advised. If they'd like help with stabilizing the political process then I'm all for it though.
     
    #41 Refman, Dec 19, 2002
  2. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Karzai who?
     
    #42 Invisible Fan, Dec 20, 2002
  3. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    We won't have to pump money into the situation. Iraq has oil money to rebuild infrastructure etc, and run the government.
     
    #43 HayesStreet, Dec 20, 2002
  4. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Hayes has it right. We just take their oil to pay for the costs of the war and the estimated hundreds of thousands of troops and equipment needed for occupation. We perhaps even take a little bit more. Some might say it is similar to old British imperialism. We can call this reparations.


    Or maybe Refman has it right. The US taxpayers pick up the task for nation building, (hundreds of billions) which suddenly conservtives like to do. Bush and contriubtors in the oil and defense industries make a winfall. Some might call this corporate welfare. We can call it free enterprise.

    Oh, that's right! We are just doing it becuase he has weapons of mass destruction. What makes it different from when he had even more weapons of mass destruction and he was our ally? How has he become more of a threat to the US and Britain?

    I dunno.
     
    #44 glynch, Dec 20, 2002
  5. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Originally posted by glynch
    Hayes has it right. We just take their oil to pay for the costs of the war and the estimated hundreds of thousands of troops and equipment needed for occupation. We perhaps even take a little bit more. Some might say it is similar to old British imperialism. We can call this reparations.

    I agree with glynch that we cannot take anything out of Iraq, because we'd be taking from the Iraqi people, no longer the Iraqi government...so we'll have to eat the cost of the war.

    The Iraqi's will be rebuilding their country; to impede that effort or be seen as 'profiting' from the invasion in any way will result in a growth of extremism we've seen elsewhere.

    Or maybe Refman has it right. The US taxpayers pick up the task for nation building, (hundreds of billions) ...

    Where's your '100's of B's' come from? Are you making that up?

    The costs of the war is estimated to costs as much as $100 billion, but the cost of rebuilding would be $50-150 billion over many years. The Iraqis presently pull in about $15/yr in oil revenues. I imagine they ship much less now than before the sanctions.
    (We should remember that a good portion of the oil rev's cannot be used for rebuilding infracstructure since it will be used for daily support of the Iraqi people since their economy was destroyed)

    Oh, that's right! We are just doing it becuase he has weapons of mass destruction. What makes it different from when he had even more weapons of mass destruction and he was our ally? How has he become more of a threat to the US and Britain?
    I dunno.

    Your really really don't, glynch?
     
    #45 Cohen, Dec 20, 2002
  6. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    #46 Cohen, Dec 20, 2002
  7. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Talk about taking something out of context. Upon reading Hayes' post for the third time, I can only conclude that he believes (and I agree) that Iraq can sell their oil to rebuild their nation without foreign assistance. But that couldn't possibly be how it works out, right glynch? :rolleyes:

    Bush won't make any money on this war. He can't. To do so would land him in prison.

    Your posts lack one key element....REALITY.
     
    #47 Refman, Dec 20, 2002
  8. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Uh, as you said he was our ally. Hence not a threat. Now his not our ally, and is a threat. What part of that is confusing you? And he never had nuclear weapons in the past. Each of the times he's been close his capability has been militarily destroyed. First by the Israelis and then by the UN.

    Ref,

    You've got the context right. I was pointing out that we would not have to pay for rebuilding as their oil exports will pay for it. Not to mention the foreign investment that will flood into Iraq post-Saddam. Even if the Iraqis only exported what they do currently, which wouldn't be the case since sanctions would be gone, that money would be going to Iraqis instead of Saddam's military buildup.


    I do wonder why people feel it was justified to stop the Nazis massacre of Jews, Serb massacre of Bosnians etc, and yet feel we should leave an equally heinious Iraqi regime in place.
     
    #48 HayesStreet, Dec 20, 2002
  9. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    Originally posted by HayesStreet
    Uh, as you said he was our ally. Hence not a threat. Now his not our ally, and is a threat. What part of that is confusing you? ...

    :D
     
    #49 Cohen, Dec 20, 2002
  10. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Hitler == White
    Milosovic == White
    Hussein != White

    Food for thought.
     
    #50 StupidMoniker, Dec 20, 2002
  11. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Regarding the costs of the war. Try the Congressional Budget Office.

    ***************
    In a detailed estimate, the Congressional Budget Office differed from Lindsey's prediction of a $100 billion to $200 billion cost. The CBO said it would cost as much as $13 billion to redeploy U.S. troops in Iraq; up to $9 billion a month to fight the war itself; as much as $7 billion to send the troops back home; and up to $4 billion a month to occupy Iraq.

    A war lasting two months with a five-year occupation, in other words, could cost as much as $269 billion.

    The CBO acknowledged that its estimates are fraught with uncertainty and could even be on the low side. For example, they do not include "any costs for reconstruction or foreign aid that the United States might choose to extend after the conflict ends."


    war costs
     
    #51 glynch, Dec 21, 2002
  12. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Hayes, you know you seem like a smart guy. You should really examine your displacement of a fear of communism and Stalin to Sadam.

    The neocon crowd around Bush does this for personal financial gain from the war economy and or their desire for a greater Israel. I'm not sure that either of these is your goal.

    As for as Refman, I'm not sure if his literal mindedness is a tactic or reflects something else. Refman is right. Bush II, Cheney and Rumsfled while in office can't directly profit from the tax payer expenses on the military. It's later, Refman. A sample of how it works is watching how Bush I and Baker profit now , as Cheney and Rumsfeld did in their hiatus from government.

    **************************
    Legal Group Blasts Papa Shrub on Bin Laden Link
    Bush Sr. Could Profit From War
    by Geoffrey Gray
    October 11th, 2001 1:45 PM


    arry Klayman likes suing the United States government. Over the last seven years as chairman and general counsel of Judicial Watch, a public interest law firm in Washington, he has filed over 150 lawsuits against the feds, including more than 80 against former president Bill Clinton himself. Called the Ralph Nader of the right, Klayman has litigation habits considered by some Beltway insiders as wildly ambitious. Others think he's just plain crazy.
    But now Klayman and Judicial Watch are pawing in disbelief through President George W. Bush's past business connections with the Saudi-based Bin Laden family. The firm is demanding that GWB's father, the original President Bush, immediately resign from his post as a paid senior adviser to the Carlyle Group, a private Washington equity firm that according to The New York Times has essentially become the nation's 11th largest defense contractor.

    Carlyle's investors include the Bin Laden family, which has disowned its terrorist son Osama; Bush Sr.; and former Bush inner guard members Nick Carlucci and James Baker. Judicial Watch says all involved stand to benefit from any increase in U.S. defense spending.

    "It's mind-boggling," says Klayman. "This conflict of interest has now turned into a scandal." With the recent U.S. air strikes in Afghanistan, Klayman says, the conflict of interest is now "direct."

    Klayman questions why Bush the Younger is not aggressively pursuing Saudi Arabia, a country known to harbor terrorists. He points to Bush the Elder's business connections there, like the Saudi-based Bin Laden family, through Carlyle. "President Bush should not ask, but demand, that his father pull out of the Carlyle Group," says Klayman.

    Neither former president Bush—who has continued advising his son on handling the war on terrorism—nor the Carlyle Group returned calls seeking comment.

    In a case of "like father, like son," President Bush also had connections to the Carlyle Group, the Voice has learned. In the years before his 1994 bid for Texas governor, Bush owned stock in and sat on the board of directors of Caterair, a service company that provided airplane food and was also a component of Carlyle. For his consulting position, Bush was paid $15,000 a year, according to a Texas insider, and a bonus $1000 for every meeting he attended—roughly $75,000 in total. Reports show Carlyle was also a major contributor to his electoral fund.

    Upon hearing about the Bush-Bin Laden family connection, other Washington nonprofits have joined Judicial Watch in expressing their concern.

    "Carlyle is as deeply wired into the current administration as they can possibly be," Charles Lewis, executive director of the Center for Public Integrity, told Bushwatch.org. "George Bush is getting money from private interests that have business before the government, while his son is president. And, in a really peculiar way, George W. Bush could, some day, benefit financially from his own administration's decisions, through his father's investments. The average American doesn't know that. To me, that's a jaw-dropper."

    Bush I and profitting from defense spending when out of office.
     
    #52 glynch, Dec 21, 2002
  13. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Glynch,

    I'm not sure why you think there is a connection between my hatred of communism and Saddam. Other than the fact that the US could, and did oppose that particular brand of totalitarian expansion, I don't think there is one. We can, and should, oppose Saddam. On many many levels: he is a potential threat with nukes to the world economy and hence world peace, he is a genocidal despot more heinous that Milosevic, he is a conventional threat to an important region, and has shown a propensity to gamble on expansion (Iran & Kuwait). As long as he is a threat a continued US presence in the region is REQUIRED, leading to other ills such as Osama bi lunatic.


    And for the last time, stop lumping me in as a neocon. I worked on Al Haig's campaign as an 18 year old, for cryin out loud. That alone makes it impossible to describe me as someone who was a liberal that became a conservative.
     
    #53 HayesStreet, Dec 21, 2002
  14. Refman

    Refman Member

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    I suppose only Democrats do things like this because it's right. :rolleyes: You really should get a new gimmick glynch...this one has gotten tired.

    Define "something else" glynch. Go ahead and tell me what little conceptual box you've thrown me into in that warped, nutball, so far to the left I'm all by myself mind of yours.

    You forgot to mention Al Gore...or have you forgotten about all that oil stock his daddy left him? Don't come in here like Bush and co. is dirty and the Dems have clean hands...they don't.

    Your wild accusations of the President getting us into a war solely for profit is disgusting. As you guys like to say on the left about WMD...prove it.
     
    #54 Refman, Dec 21, 2002
  15. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    Don't forget Ref, according to No Worries (IIRC) glynch is really a left-leaning moderate.

    HAHAHAHAHA :D
     
    #55 StupidMoniker, Dec 21, 2002
  16. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Yeah...and the Pope is a Baptist. LOL
     
    #56 Refman, Dec 21, 2002
  17. No Worries

    No Worries Member

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    Seriously you guys have no idea who liberals are. it appears that anybody who does not agree with you is a liberal. Go figure.
     
    #57 No Worries, Dec 21, 2002
  18. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet

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    I live about two miles from Santa Cruz, CA. My brother lived in San Francisco for about 2 years. I think I have a reasonably firm grasp of what a liberal is, thank you.
     
    #58 StupidMoniker, Dec 21, 2002
  19. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    glynch,

    The neocon crowd around Bush does this for personal financial gain from the war economy and or their desire for a greater Israel. I'm not sure that either of these is your goal.

    You're a real ass sometimes. Everyone has to fit in a bucket (haven't you recognized that a number of people here have asked you to stop trying to 'bucket' them). And it couldn't be that

    Bush and his cohorts are concerned about U.S. safety; no, that doesn't work for you, does it?


    I'm confused about the article. Is the issue that Bush Sr. has a vested interest (as a 'paid senior advisor') in defense spending, is in bed with Bin Laden's family, or will have a bias for Saudi Arabia?

    Lets see:
    1) Bush Sr. is not Chairman, or President, or a Director...he's a paid advisor;
    2) The Carlyle Group is has money in many industries, not just defense;
    3) The Carlyle Group has over over 550 investors from 55 countries ( http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/profile.htm#strategy).

    Regarding the Bin Ladens, they disowned osama. They shouldn't be held accountable for his actions.

    Regarding Saudi Arabia, you think Bush Sr's 'padi advisor' role in a Company that has some investors from Saudi Arabia play more of a role in our foreign policy than Saudi Arabia's role as the leader of OPEC and as an ally in the region? :rolleyes:

    Don't waste our time with this stuff.

    Oh, and BTW, I heard Kevin Bacon stands to profit also from the War also.
     
    #59 Cohen, Dec 21, 2002
  20. Refman

    Refman Member

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    So now Kevin Bacon is within 6 degrees of Saddam Hussein? :eek:
     
    #60 Refman, Dec 21, 2002
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