[LA Times] "Clemens, Others Implicated in Banned Drug Case"

Whoa, hold on there a sec. If this report is true, then it basically is claiming Clemens used steroids during his Yankees years, when both him and Pettite were teamates of Grimsley. So basically you're saying he didn't use steroids when Grimsley would have been in a position to possibly witness it but DID when he and Grimsley weren't even in the same damn clubhouse anymore.

I don't think it's hard to suggest that his switch to the NL helped to lower his ERA...as for one hitters need time to adjust to pitchers they haven't faced before, two, pitchers don't have to face a DH, and three the NL (at least recently) is weaker offensively than the AL. Look at Randy Johnson's years before, during after his Diamondback tenure.

 

i don't know if he used or not, but who said he didn't start using with the yankees? bonds apparently started after the 1998 homerun chase but didn't really become superman until 2001.

i said it helped in an absolute sense with a lower ERA, but relatively speaking he wasn't a top 10 pitcher in the AL his last 2 years with the yankees and now has been the absolute best in the NL the last 2 years. 1.87 last year was like .50 ahead of anyone else and now his 2.30 this year is apparently the best in the majors since he started pitching on 6/22. there can't be like 15 pitchers in the AL who are all better than every single pitcher in the NL. now like i said, maybe he is clean. maybe ausmus just calls games that well, maybe somehow NL hitters just can't figure him out but can other NL pitchers, maybe clemens figured something out he wasn't using for 20 years, but when you suddenly get way better at 43 and 44 in the steroids era and someone has actually named you, it's not really crazy to think you may have used them.

 

If you don't think it should raise some suspicion, that's your business.

I disagree.

 

So you've decided you speak for the entire BBS... that's nice. Very objective.

 

This might be a silly question, but is there a documented connection between performance enhancing drugs and ERA?

I am sure there might be a contribution, but seems to me that a good catcher that calls a good game would contribute more to an ERA than getting juiced up.

 

I didn't know steroids gave you great control, he hasn't had an over the top fastball in awhile, and he always had his temper. Switching leagues can explain his ERA going down (unfamiliar hitters and no DH) just as it helped Ryan. Oh wait, I guess Nolan was on 'roids too since he was also a power pitcher into his middle 40s.

 

Nolan must still be on roids . . . cause look how much he has bulked up in his 50's

 

I just want some hard solid facts.

And what exactly is the correlation between taking performance drugs and pitching...cause that Grimsley guy wasn't exactly....good. Maybe it helps to raise your velocity a little (?) but if that's the case, then it wouldn't apply to Clemens as his velocity has clearly came down. I dunno, I just think it's easy to just assume that most players are using them because of some bad apples. But then that drags innocent players through the mud.

Honestly, it's getting to a point where frankly I don't give a s**t anymore...kind of never really did all that much anyways. Players are always looking for that extra edge, that ain't ever gonna change.

 

Fair enough. I'm not in total defense of him or anybody where a cloud of supsicion is hovering over them, but I've tried to maintain an innocent until proven guilty approach. I think what pisses me off more is when athletes actually are found in possession and vehemently deny any wrongdoing (Palmeiro, Bonds, Landis, etc).

And yes he came over to the NL and his ERA dropped dramatically and he's still as dominant as year one for the Astros...but then you look at how he pitches and that kinda seems to go against what steroids would provide...unless they do help with your control, I dunno.

 

While I don't think steroids will magically increase a pitcher's velocity, many have attributed Clemens' remarkable performance at his age to his ridiculous workout regimen.

It's certainly possible that steroids could help a play A) recover from workouts quicker and B) recover from the physical strain of pitching every 5 days.

 

Not to say this couldn't have happened, but until there is hard evidence, I'll hold judgement...It would be a shame...

 

Every single MLB player from about 1946 to now is/was a suspected user of performance-enhancing drugs.

Does the fact that Mickey Mantle & Pete Rose (just to name 2) popped amphetamines like they were Tic-Tacs diminish their accomplishments as players?

Just enjoy the game.

 

agree

 

lol....Am i the only one who thought that was funny...

 

agree 100%.

also....just for my own personal knowledge...what is the fuss over HGH? This stuff improves your eyesight, physique, libido, slows the aging process, and yet it is placed in the same conversation as steroids, which have been linked to many health hazards. Am I missing something, because the only knock I can find about HGH is the price.

Please...somebody school me!

 

Totally disagree. The game is supposed to be about skill and talent. Not about who gets the best drugs.

 

how is that responsive to his post. no one is suggesting the opposite of what you're saying. they're suggesting it's been this way forever...

and i'll suggest something further...it's like this in all sports now. we don't have a great way to test for HGH right now. you don't think football players and basketball players are using this stuff, too?

 

On the other hand, Clemens is not pitching anywhere near the velocity he did when he was in his prime. He isn't coming close to records in strikeouts or innings. He clearly has had to pitch smarter rather than just overpowering hitters. He can barely pitch into the 8th inning. This is totally different than Bonds, who was demolishing the record books. Bonds was having his best years in his mid 30s, Clemens was pitching well but not like he was when he was young. On top of that, the league has begun testing in the past couple years, which were some of his better "old" years.

I'm not convinced he didn't use steroids, but I don't think his stats indicate that he did.

 

I don't know if they are, and my point is it does reduce their accomplishments if they use illegal drugs. And the more effective the drug, the more it diminishes their accomplishments. It was a joke when guys like Luis Gonzalez was on pace for 70 home runs.

 

Not saying it's right, not saying it isn't cheating, just saying that you're searching for a standard of purity that has *never* existed in MLB.