That's true about Foster. I only meant that he had a good end to his season and people wondered if he could do it for next season. That's what Lowry needs to do, just continue this play. What is he averaging since the break? It has to be like 18ppg and 7apg around that, that is all-star type numbers. One thing is for sure, whether he's better than Rondo or not. He could be the starting PG for a championship team. If Fisher is, he definitely is.
All-Star point guards are overrated. I would much rather have a dominant guy in the post or a high-scorer on the wing than an all-star point guard. 90% of the teams that win a championship have a solid PG who can hit threes, run the offense, and play some defense. Right now, Lowry has shown he can do all three. Anything else we got from him is just icing on the cake. Compared to most All-Star point guards, his Talent and production level to salary is right up there with some of the best. As long as we don't choose to build around him, but rather have him be a super role-player, I'll be happy. That being said, if he continues this sort of play next year, and the Rockets have a good record come all-star break, no Williams or Nash (decline) could help find him a spot on the squad.
I don't think rebounds will dramaticlly drop off for Rondo when Garnet is gone. I don't think Rondo's passing and court vision will be gone without the other three. I don't know "Celtics fans cringe" thing is pure imagination or not. Paul has successful seasons with NO, that's why who is considered elite. If his team goes to lottery every year, he won't be mentioned in top 5.
Williams is a better defender than Rose, heck Rose is a god awful defender, he gets stuck in picks as much as Brooks does. Rondo isn't that great a man on man defender either, what Rondo is really really good at is steals with those long arms.
Lowry can rebound too... Yeah but it will be harder to create when he's not with those guys, was Pau Gasol considered a elite big man before going to the Lakers? Has Marion ever been considered one of the best SFs since moving from PHX? You cannot simply just deny that playing with HOFamers (All 3 of them) does not make the game much easier for Rondo.
Sure Lowry can rebound. He can also defend. But the problem is Rondo still does better than Lowry in those two departments, which is Lowry's strength. That's one of the reasons I don't care if Rondo is in top 5 or not, I'll still take him over Lowry. Gasol was not considered elite big man until he got team success in LA. That's just proved my point: team success is more imporant than personal stats. Marion was never considered elite, Nash and Amare were the top 2 dogs there, so that doesn't mean anything. I don't deny Rondo is playing with 3 already passed prime HOFers, but I also don't deny the talant and impact Rondo0 normally has, which I think has a higher ceiling than Lowry. The point: Lowry is very very good, but Rondo is better. A straight trade will be in Rockets favor.
Though true, I'd still be really pissed if this happened, if only because watching Rondo attempt to shoot the ball pretty damn near makes me want to vomit.
And one more thing. I just remembered in one of the recent Morey's potcast, he called Rondo franchis type player when talking about NBA draft. Morey never called Lowry franchise type, even though he targeted him before we knew it. That shows you how highly Rondo is regarded by Morey.
And Lowry scores much better than Rondo, and again I don't think Rondo is on some other level defensively than Lowry. Well Gasol is still not better than the likes of Howard. Marion made the All NBA team twice during that time, he was considered elite at his position during that time. He never really did anything differently than he does now, its just then he played alongside two great players and the game came much easier for him. That's what great players do, they play so well it makes the things these players do much easier. Rondo doesn't have to go out and score 20 ppg (like Lowry does...) because KG,Pierce, Ray got that. Past their primes maybe, the same way Manu and Kobe and Dirk are past their primes then. I don't think Rondo is that much better than Lowry. The only thing is he's been doing this for most of the year since last year in the playoffs. He has a higher ceiling than Lowry? I'm not so sure about that, if Lowry continued to play how he's playing now he has a higher ceiling, he's a much better scorer and complete package than Rondo who can barely average 10ppg. His defense is not far behind (if at all) his rebounding is not far behind (if at all). Lowry is playing like a more complete PG than Rondo has.
Without the FT difference, Lowy isn't better than Rondo at scoring. Their TS% would be very similar. Rondo is not that a horrible scorer like you made him to be. His career 49% FG percentage don't lie. And you again made the same mistake when people value AB over Lowry: AB could shoot, Lowry couldn't. What can I say. There are simply so many other parts other than scoring in the game. Marion was never considered that elite by me, although he's very good. You consider him elite, doesn't mean he is. Nash was truely elite on that team. Gasol is not better than Howard, it's true. It has nothing to do with Gasol plays with elite players or not, he's just not on DH's level. That again defeated your assumption. It doesn't matter Rondo plays with the other 3 or not, he's a better talant than Lowry. You don't have to agree what I'm saying, just like those AB lovers don't have to agree when I said Lowry was better. In you book, Lowry is a more complete PG than Rondo. In my book. Rondo does most things a little better. It's not like Rondo doesn't play hard or play smart. No matter how hard Lowry plays, he can't grow any taller, his arms can't grow any longer, his vision will more than likely stay at below elite level.
I read where a lot of people are comparing Kyle's rise to Billups rise. I see Kyle rising more in the fashion that Steve Nash did. Nash was a mid round pick that played back up to Kidd in Pheonix. Dallas traded for him and it looked like he would back up Robert Pack when he could not stay healthy when given extended playing time. There was a time when no one on this board considered Nash to be in the same conversation as Steve Francis much less the elite point guards like Jason Kidd at the time. Fast forward several years and Nash became an elite point guard in Dallas and won two NBA MVP's in Phoenix. Now I know Kyle plays a different style than Nash but they are both pure point guards and Kyle seems to be rising up the ranks similar to the way Nash did. Now he is convincing people that he is much much better than they thought.
are we talking shooting or scoring? Rondo might not be able to shoot like Ray but he's pretty damn crafty around the basket.
That's true. Ability to get to the rim and finish is a big plus. Too bad Rondo can't make a FT to save his life,otherwise his TS% would sky rock.
No it doesn't lie but it doesn't tell you the complete story. He cannot just create his own shot, they are not going to Rondo to get game winning scores. No not really, you are saying Rondo is better than Lowry because he is a better defender...and i'm telling you things Lowry does significantly better than Rondo. Lowry has always been the more complete player than Brooks, that was always pretty clear. The people making arguments for Brooks were usually saying that the team needed his scoring more. I'm not considering him(Marion) elite. I'm saying he was, he made all NBA 3rd team twice during those years, which means that only 2 players at his position were voted ahead of him. That is elite at your position. YES Nash was the best player on that team, that's not the point. The point is that when you play with great players like Nash and Amare it makes your job MUCH much easier. When Marion was traded to the Heat his role increased, he was no longer the guy that could just run up and down, drain open shots, focus on defense. It now became...Hey Marion you need to create your own shots now, we need to be able to defer to you now. I've always liked Lowry over Brooks any ways, although I supported both. His height and length becomes irrelevant when he's doing what he's doing right now. Dwight is shorter and not as long as Thabeet either...Iverson was small...I mean there are tons of players who don't have the prototypical bodytype for their positions. That is irrelevant when the player is actually playing very well.
If Rondo can't create his own shot, he won't be able to get to the rim that often. Truth is he can, but he chose not to, because there are better scorers on the team. It is similar to people used to say "Lowry can't create his own shots". I'm saying Rondo is better because he does most things a little better than Lowry, defense included. For example, Rondo has better vision too. Lowry is definitely more complated than Brooks, but not necessarily more complate than Rondo. Rondo, like Lowry, can be considered complete player already. Marion is never elite. Just to remind you, NBA 3rd team for forward is not #3, but #5 at best. And his choice is debatable. Marion is a product of Suns system and Nash, who creates everything for him. Rondo is different, he creates more for his teammates than he recieve from them. When two players play similar style, with similar intesity, size matters, ethletic ability matters. Yao won't be the same without his height. Size is not the deciding factor to go average or good, but it certanily helps when you try to go elite. Dwight doesn't have Thabeet's size, it only means size isn't everything, but Dwight has size, it also means size is something. The only reason Hayes sin't considered elite defender is his size. Sometimes size put a cap on how good a player can be,especially defensively.
Okay but if he does only a little things better than Lowry but Lowry is a much better scorer than how is Rondo so much clearly better than Lowry? Lets remember that Rondo was drafted 21st and Lowry was drafted 24th, so it's not even like Rondo was projected to have all this potential, neither was Lowry. Well the only SFs to make ALL NBA teams those years were...Lebron James and Tracy McGrady. By that logic Tmac was not Elite too because he was also on the 3rd team. If you make ANY all nba team you're a great player for that season. The next season he made 3rd team and the only SFs that time? Lebron James and Melo. As I said, at that time, during those 5 years or so he played in Phx and they were one of the best teams in the west he was a Top 5 SF no doubt in anyones mind, he also made All-Star appearances. Point is since he left the Suns he hasn't even got close to any of those accolades. Maybe he wasn't considered elite in your mind then, but it seems a lot of people thought he was at the time. But still how true is that when Ben Wallace...a 6'9 center can win 4 DPOY awards and a championship among other accolades? Size ain't nothing if you are getting things done. That's the only point I'm making, otherwise...Durant is too skinny to be a great player. That was the only knock on him coming into the NBA and yeah...I'd say they were wrong about that.
17 & 8 20 & 9 vs 9 & 12 4 & 6 Color me unimpressed with Rondo's defense, or maybe Kyle is just that good... :grin: Rondo's defense will be exposed when KG retires. Losing Perkins was a huge blow as well. He will be on an island, a feeling that he has not yet experienced in his career. His helpside and help the helper left me extremely unimpressed in both Rocket games. I fully expect Lowry to surpass him next year with another offseason of work. (Let's not forget the fact that Lowry is playing in a Princeton, which is all initiated from the highpost. Seven assists in a Princeton is equal to 10-12 in a more traditional "9" offense, or a flex like the Jazz run.)
Lowry is not MUCH BETTER than Rondo in terms of scoring. He wasn't even better than Rondo until recently. Yet Rondo does a lot other things better than Lowry for several seaons already. That makes Rondo better than Lowry. Where were they drafted is irrelavant. Both were underrated at draft time, both are still underrated now. Generally speaking, Lowry is mroe underrated than Rondo by normal fans, but if you think Lowry is better, than Rondo is more underrated by a mile. All NBA team doesn' really care small forward or not. KG and Duncan have multiple years to be on NBA 1st team together playing same position. 3rd team means #5 at best. And Marion was a tweaner, he had player 3 and 4 on Suns depening on the availability of Amare. Despite the last two DPOY was purely by repuation, Wallace was good. But that's rare case. If you look at the DPOY, almost every body who won the award had decent size at his position. More often than not, size plays a huge role there. When I consider Rondo is a better defender than Lowry, one of the biggest reason is his size and long arm allows him to do something Lowry can't. It's not Lowry's falut.
Watch more games when Rondo was healthy, it was different. 2 games really means nothing, let alone he's injured. Certainly I hope Lowry would improve even more, if he passes Rondo, I'd be more than happy. Lowry has star potential and star mentality, he just needs more hard work to get there and stay healthy. But at this moment, Rondo is still better. And I think he has a higher ceiling. Time will tell.
Yeah until recently which is what this entire thread is about. Lowry since the break is averaging around 117ppg to Rondo's 10...that is a MUCH better scorer. It's Lowry who is underrated. Rondo by the media and others is considered to be one of the best PGs, if anything he is overrated. No the teams take Two Gs, Two Fs, and One C. I know that. The point is you are saying Marion WASN'T a elite SF during that time. I don't see how you can say that when the only SFs during those years to make the ALL NBA teams were Melo, James, Mcgrady, and Marion. Think about that. Those were the only SFs to make the teams, the rest were PFs. The point is Marion made those teams, along with All-star appearances because he played with great players. When he moved from Phx he has not had similar success because he had to do more than what he was used to. Just like when Garnett/Pierce/Allen are not with Rondo, he is going to be asked to do a lot more than what he does now. The whole point is I know that Lowry can take charge and lead his team to wins. He's been doing it for a extended time now and time will tell if he can keep it up. I don't know that about Rondo. I don't know that if you swapped Rondo for Lowry we would be where we are now. Would we have won 4 games in a row? Would Rondo had hit all the big shots Lowry hit? Would Rondo had got all the big steals and rebounds that Lowry has that has led this team back into the playoff race? I don't know that about Rondo, the team has never had to depend on him like that for too long. Also counting times when one or two of the Big 3 goes down isn't the same because players always step up in the absence of others. That is why I would not take Rondo over Lowry right now. I know I can depend on Lowry to win games for his team...don't know that about Rondo.
