1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Kyl: "I Don't Think A Single Republican Will Support Health Care"

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by mc mark, Aug 21, 2009.

  1. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471

    Does threatening to repeal healthcare reform help the debate at all about trying to pass healthcare reform?
     
  2. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    A good question. One wonders why the thumbs-crowd (who truly want health care reform, if you recall) are so ready to seethe at the lack of well though-out solutions in the Obama package but are apparently not equally upset at the utter lack of alternatives being presented by the opposition?

    Moreover, one wonders just how thumbs intended to encourage dialogue on solutions while yelling curiously vapid slogans at the last tea party rally?
     
  3. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    I don't think it has any effect at all, except possibly with Barton's constituents.
     
  4. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    Hmmm. Do you have video of my "yelling curiously vapid slogans?" I can assure you, as anybody who actually knows me can testify, I rarely yell or shout. I do listen. Also, I don't seethe at the lack of well thought-out solutions nor do I seethe at the lack of alternatives to the lack of well thought-out solutions. I wish I had the expertise to draft the perfect health care plan, but I don't. That's why I listen to everybody and try to understand what might work and why. And, yes, I am not being disingenuous about wanting a comprehensive, effective health care plan for all U.S. citizens.
     
  5. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    I was being an ass. Kudos to you for shrugging it off so well.

    But there was some truth to my rankling. It's all well and good for you to be upset about Obama's plans - but where are you guys in the huge crowd of outright asshats yelling bizarre misnomers at town hall meetings? I appreciate your principled stance thumbs, but you are an obviously moot minority. Your party has jumped off the cliff and your left preaching to the gorge.
     
  6. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    Rhad, as you must suspect, I have respect for your opinions despite occasionally disagreeing with them. All I can try to do is explain my beliefs and how I arrived at them. I expect the same from others. I expect dialogue without accusation or rancor. It's how differences are ironed out.

    I have tried to explain why some of those town hall "screamers" are screaming. They are not paid by insurance companies. They are genuinely frustrated that their own politicians are not listening -- or they believe that the pols are not listening. I have tried to explain why the health care debate is so frightening to some of us old codgers. For those explanations, click on my nickname and go to "see other posts."
     
    #66 thumbs, Aug 31, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  7. Refman

    Refman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    I think the biggest problem with the healthcare issue is the lack of alternatives being bantered about. If the GOP legislators do not like the Obama plan, please have some alternative ideas.

    At that point, we may be able to get some productive accomplished.
     
  8. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 1999
    Messages:
    15,937
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    That would be great. But it won't happen because Republicans in Congress don't want the problem to be solved. They prefer to make Democrats run in 2010 having failed to get anything through on health care. That is their stated plan. It's not about one kind of health care reform vs. another -- it's about handing Obama and Democrats in Congress a big loss. See: Jim DeMint and Waterloo.

    Senator Grassley, who was supposed to be part of the bi-partisan "gang of six," has taken to campaigning for re-election on the platform of stopping health care reform. Another senator said he didn't need to read the bill and he didn't care what was in it; he's voting no. This is the official strategy: obstruct anything and everything.

    Republicans don't want to fix the problem. It's going to be up to the Democrats.
     
  9. Refman

    Refman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    I understand that and am very disturbed by it. It is time for the moderates in the GOP to take the party back.

    It may take a few bad election cycles for that message to resonate.
     
  10. Batman Jones

    Batman Jones Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 1999
    Messages:
    15,937
    Likes Received:
    5,491
    Are you sticking with the GOP in 2010?
     
  11. Refman

    Refman Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    13,674
    Likes Received:
    312
    Not for governor. I firmly expect myself to vote for Kinky.

    As for the House and Senate, I will be paying very close attention to what the candidates are saying and what their respective records are.

    My vote is up for grabs.
     
  12. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    false

    Please google "Americans for Prosperity" and "Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation" and who funds them.


    Americans for Prosperity (AFP)

    Background

    Americans for Prosperity (AFP) is a conservative think-tank established in Washington, D.C. in 2003. It replaced the Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation. AFP is the sister organization to FreedomWorks. FreedomWorks is an organization that formed in 2004 when Citizens for a Sound Economy merged with the think tank Empower America. Both the Citizens for a Sound Economy and Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation were created by the Koch Foundations.

    Americans for Prosperity describes itself as a grassroot organization that is committed to engaging "citizens in the name of limited government and free markets on the local, state, and federal levels." Further, the AFP offers training to not only educate citizens about economic policy, but also, to mobilize those citizens to become advocates in the public policy process. As a result, the AFP has state chapters in twenty-three states; these chapters focus on issues particular to their region.

    The organization is extremely conservative in its economic and governance beliefs. It's mission is to reduce taxes and government spending, promote entrepeunership, and restore fairness to the American judicial system.

    Funding

    AFP is a non-profit organization who does not to disclose its donors. However, the Media Transparency project shows from 2003-2006, Americans for Prosperity received $1,181,000 from conservative foundations. $1 million of that funding was given by the Claude R. Lambe Charitable Foundation--one of the Koch Family Foundations.

    The AFP is the third largest recipient of funding from the Koch Family Foundations, behind the Cato Institute and the George Mason University Foundation.

    Before 2003, when the AFP was still named the Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation, it received $18,460,912 in funding. 84% of that funding came from the Koch Family Foundations ($12,906,712) and the Scaife Family Foundations ($2,510,000).

    Koch Family Foundations is funded by Koch Industries. According to Forbes, Koch Industries is the second largest privately-held company, and the largest privately owned energy company, in the United States. Koch industries has made its money in the oil business, primarily oil refining. Presently, it holds stakes in pipelines, refineries, fertilizer, forest products, and chemical technology.

    Americans for Prosperity is also connected to oil giant ExxonMobil. According to ExxonSecrets, between the years 1998-2001, Citizens for A Sound Economy and Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation received $380,250 from ExxonMobil.
     
  13. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    more...


    Who's behind the attacks on a health care overhaul?


    By Margaret Talev, McClatchy Newspapers Margaret Talev, Mcclatchy Newspapers – Fri Aug 14, 3:11 pm ET

    WASHINGTON — Much of the money and strategy behind the so-called grassroots groups organizing opposition to the Democrats' health care plans comes from conservative political consultants, professional organizers and millionaires, some of whom hold financial stakes in the outcome.

    If President Barack Obama and Congress extend health insurance coverage to millions of uninsured Americans, raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for it, and limit insurers' discretion on who they cover and what they charge, that could pinch these opponents.

    Most of them say they oppose big government in principle. Despite Obama's assurances to the contrary, many of them insist that the Democrats' legislation is but the first step toward creation of a single-payer system, where the federal government hires the doctors, approves treatments, sets the rules and imperils profit.

    These opposition groups appear to have spent at least $10 million so far on ads attacking the Democrats' plans. Still, supporters of a health care overhaul have outspent opponents by more than 2-to-1 so far, according to Evan Tracey of the Campaign Media Analysis Group , which tracks ad spending. Supporters include drug makers angling for their own protections, unions, the American Medical Association and AARP , the seniors' lobby. Supporters announced this week that they intend to spend $150 million promoting an overhaul.

    The opposition groups' names sound catchy and populist: Patients First. Patients United. Americans for Prosperity. Conservatives for Patients' Rights. FreedomWorks. 60 Plus. Club for Growth .

    Here's who's behind them:

    Conservatives for Patients' Rights is led by health care entrepreneur Rick Scott , the co-founder of Solantic urgent care walk-in centers, which he's spread across Florida and is looking to expand. While 80 percent of its patients have at least some insurance, Solantic also bills itself as an alternative to emergency-room care and a resource for patients with no insurance.

    Scott left his job as CEO of the Columbia /HCA hospitals during a federal Medicare fraud probe in 1997 that led to a historic $1.7 billion settlement. He wasn't prosecuted and got a golden parachute.

    Solantic's growth, Scott said in a telephone interview, is due in part to the trend in which "deductibles and co-payments are going up. As that happens, more people want us."

    Scott said he wasn't concerned that the Democrats' proposed revisions would undercut his business: "It's irrelevant to us." Instead, he said he opposes the Democrats' plans because he doesn't believe that government involvement will contain health care costs. He sees it killing off the best private insurance plans and ultimately leading to a single-payer system, which he predicted would lead to waiting lists and denial of treatments.

    Scott said he supports some government intervention — such as preventing insurers from dumping sick patients. Those who can't afford coverage on their own should get vouchers or tax credits, he said.

    FreedomWorks, which has been advocating against the overhaul but has not launched TV ads, is chaired by Dick Armey , the former Republican majority leader of the House of Representatives from Texas .

    But also noteworthy are the group's other backers and board members. They include billionaire flat-tax proponent and former GOP presidential candidate Steve Forbes ; Richard J. Stephenson , who founded Cancer Treatment Centers of America , which offers alternative as well as standard therapies, sometimes not covered by insurance; and Frank M. Sands, Sr. , chief executive officer of an investment management firm whose offerings include a Healthcare Leaders portfolio.

    "They're on our board because they support lower taxes, less government and more freedom," said FreedomWorks spokesman Adam Brandon .

    Matt Kibbe , the chief executive officer of FreedomWorks, said its members believe that "the government is already way too involved in the nation's health care system" and that government is to blame for health-cost inflation.

    Kibbe acknowledged that private insurance is out of reach for many small businesses and individuals, but he contended that can be dealt with without creating a government-managed exchange. Like Scott, he expressed concern that more government interference would lead to a single-payer system, which would "inevitably" impose rationing of treatments to contain costs.

    Patients First and Patients United are creations of a larger group called Americans for Prosperity. AFP's Web site describes a grassroots organization with more than 700,000 members that advocates "for public policies that champion the principles of entrepreneurship and fiscal and regulatory restraint."

    It was started by billionaire David Koch , of the Koch Industries oil family, one of the country's top donors to conservative, free-market causes. The foundation's board includes Art Pope , a former North Carolina legislator also involved in conservative causes, whose family owns hundreds of discount stores.

    Tim Phillips , AFP's president, is a former Republican congressional staffer who helped former Christian Coalition executive director Ralph Reed start up the consulting firm Century Strategies in the 1990s. Clients paid the firm to build Christian grassroots support for various business causes. That included work for since-convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff .

    The group, along with FreedomWorks, was involved in promoting the anti-tax "tea parties" earlier this year. AFP also is organizing a campaign "exposing the ballooning costs of global warming hysteria."

    In an interview, AFP's Phillips said that he couldn't think of anyone on his board with a direct financial stake in the health care industry. "It's more freedom-based," he said. "They have a deep interest in protecting economic freedoms." He also said that no one in his organization believes that more government involvement in health care will lead to reduced costs for taxpayers.

    By Labor Day , he said, his group will have organized 600 rallies on health care.

    "Americans are looking at these rallies that are happening and the town-hall turnouts, and they say, 'No one group out of thin air could do that,'" Phillips said. "The American people can see through the attacks on the other side, where they try to vilify these groups as being corporate groups or front groups. They're believing it is in fact a broad groundswell.

    "We're out here saying the truth, which is costs are going to go up and quality is going to go down. And what's the other side saying? 'Oh, these are front groups, these are all rich people.' The attack route's not going to work. It's not so far."

    Two other grassroots groups have financed ads targeting peoples' fears that more government involvement would hurt seniors and hasten end-of-life decisions.

    One of them, Club for Growth , which advocates lower taxes, is led by president Chris Chocola , a former Republican congressman from Indiana who lost his re-election bid in 2006. Club for Growth this week announced a $1.2 million ad campaign against a health care overhaul, to run in North Dakota , Colorado , Arkansas and Nevada .

    The other, 60 Plus Association , is a conservative senior advocacy group that wants to abolish the estate tax. Singer Pat Boone is the group's national spokesman. Chairman Jim Martin started the group in 1992 with fund-raising help from conservative direct mail guru Richard Viguerie . It spent $1.5 million on TV ads opposing a healthcare overhaul in the last week.

    Martin declined to identify his major donors. In 2006, he acknowledged that his group was getting funding from the pharmaceutical industry. But this year, pharmaceutical companies lead the spending spree on behalf of a health care overhaul.

    "The shoe's on the other foot," Martin said. "They've gotten in bed with the White House ."
     
  14. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    Hmmmm. I wonder how I can get some of that entrepreneur money for my group. To my knowledge nobody has ever contacted any of us. It's kind of funny how the tea partiers' signs are always home-made while the Acorn-iers signs are always slickly printed.

    Well, I don't have a problem with people spending money to express their views or positions. Both sides do it -- it's dangerous only when only one side is allowed the megaphone. In fact, as your second story points out, the big pharmas have joined the White House effort -- big business almost always gravitates toward power, which in effect is money.

    As I mentioned, I am not a screamer myself. I prefer dialogue, robust and rowdy when necessary but civil at all times. Again, many of the screamers you rail against are actually for health care reform, as I am. They are screaming out of fear and frustration about everything from legislators not reading the bill to providing health care to illegals.

    Unfortunately, fear and frustration do not lend themselves very well to reasoned thought. Neither does vilifying and marginalizing people, which makes them madder and more frustrated. I actually agree with the old screamer who demanded the same health care plan for American citizens as the Congress provides for members and for federal bureaucrats.

    Health care will pass when Obama takes the reins and practices the hands on art of legislation rather than preening as a rock star bathed in the love of his groupies.
     
    #74 thumbs, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  15. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    14,304
    Likes Received:
    596
    I'm speechless. Jealous suspicion of printed signs? Surely you can do better thumbs - try not to succomb to that which you feign to lament.

    lol. There is no provision for health care to illegals. Obama has only hinted at perhaps extending some benefits to children in that regard. Legislator's not reading the bill? Give me a ****ing break. Have they read the bill? Based on their arguments (your hilariously poignant example above makes the point perfectly) - they certainly have not. You're not a screamer, so you say, but you just defended the most brazen aspect of their idiocy.

    Well, that's bloody confusing.

    Agreed.
     
  16. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    1) I'm not jealous. I'm just pointing out who is really "organized" by outside forces. If town hall protesters were organized by the insurance lobby, wouldn't they have slick posters like the Acorn-iers?

    2) Have you read the house bill? Obama doesn't even know what's in the house bill. The Catholic Bishops are now opposing the bill because it funds abortion, which Obama swears is not there. Protesters are reading portions of the bill to lawmakers and catching them flatfooted. Trust me is no longer good enough.

    3) What's confusing about wanting the same health program for all U.S. citizens that Congress has provided for itself and other feds? You think I am arguing against health care. I'm not. I'm only trying to help you understand the rationale for those who are opposed. Until lawmakers and health care reformers understand those fears and frustrations, they are fighting a forest fire with a flame thrower.

    Do you and other health care backers want reform ... or do you just want to win a nit-picking argument?
     
    #76 thumbs, Sep 1, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2009
  17. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,096
    Likes Received:
    3,609

    Never forget that with Hillary Care Bob Dole a moderate guy with no animus for the uninsured was about to jump on board when GOP partisans told him he could not as it would gie the Dems too much of a victory.

    The plain fact is that the current GOP group in Congress is lock stock in barrel indebted to the insurance lobby and figure that they can fool the realtively small portion of GOP voters who don't have insurance or who are drastically underinsured.
     
  18. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,096
    Likes Received:
    3,609
    I agree Obama is falling into the same trap Hillary did. By trying to placate the insurance company middlemen he has created a complicated mess that is not understood or understandable and this allows them to pick it apart and confuse folks.

    Likewise you would not be associating with these teapartiers if you want reform unless it is just to explain to them how they are being deceived by the anti forces.

    Obama will get something passed. It might be a piece of crap that shovels billions to the insurance and pharmaceutical industry, but he will pass something. Politics require it.

    An interesting fact: Big pharma spends double or more on marketing than it does on research, which is supposedly the reason why they should charge so much for cheap pills.
    ***********
    Big Pharma Spends More On Advertising Than Research And Development, Study Finds
    ScienceDaily (Jan. 7, 2008) — A new study by two York University researchers estimates the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spends almost twice as much on promotion as it does on research and development, contrary to the industry’s claim.


    The researchers’ estimate is based on the systematic collection of data directly from the industry and doctors during 2004, which shows the U.S. pharmaceutical industry spent 24.4% of the sales dollar on promotion, versus 13.4% for research and development, as a percentage of US domestic sales of US$235.4 billion.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080105140107.htm
     
  19. thumbs

    thumbs Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,225
    Likes Received:
    237
    Don't be confused. I'm a tea partying flag waver from the get go. The bizarre reality is that I am considered a liberal there and a hard core conservative here. I tell you honestly -- knowing you don't believe me anyway -- that a plurality if not a majority of the tea partiers with whom I associate want health care reform. The hesitation comes because the bill is so large and so encompassing that they (and I) truly don't know what we are getting. That inspires caution. As the old adage goes, "If you buy a diamond ring for 10 cents, chances are you've bought a diamond ring that's not worth a dime."

    Obama should divide health care reform into 10 (or whatever) manageable points of one page each, specifying how the law will read and what that segment covers and doesn't cover. If he keeps it simple without trying to hide all the "gotchas" in the details, he will get health reform passed.

    I believe health care reform will ultimately pass with a duality of public and private insurance. Just as Medicare does not cover everything -- there is room for supplemental plans -- private insurance needs to make concessions like removing pre-existing conditions and making coverage costs equal for a 5-year-old or a 55-year-old.

    Remember, how many more unemployed people do you want? There are hundreds of thousands of people employed by the insurance industry from actuarians to secretaries to sales representatives. What is Obama's plan for them?
     
  20. mc mark

    mc mark Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 1999
    Messages:
    26,195
    Likes Received:
    471
    “This cannot pass. What we have to do today is make a covenant, to slit our wrists, be blood brothers on this thing. This will not pass. We will do whatever it takes to make sure this doesn’t pass.”

    Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), speaking earlier today at an event in Colorado.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now