Kubiak is too conservative

hell, a host of them aren't even in the league anymore... gaffney (is he still a pat?), hill, wand and ragone. 4 of our 13 total first day picks are working at applebees right now. 4 more went to tennessee and oakland for babin and buchannon, who may also be out of football right now...

 

nope, just failed to read all of it. here's the very next paragraph:

 

and david should be part of that list also.

BTW, Ric, if you are Carr or are related to him this isn't personal, I just don't think he will be a successful QB for this team and its time to move on

 

What I've seen so far from him: great starts to games more often than not, which indicates great scripting to the defense they know they'll see (this last week was a huge exception... they were never ready for Mangini's/Belicheck's defense).

We've also seen him resurrect the TE position here that hadn't been seen since the first expansion year with Billy Miller. He's also continued to keep AJ involved in the offense at all times, regardless of the coverage.

I've seen more game-to-game adjustments, than I have in-game adjustments. As I said, the fact that this team is having more detrimental injuries week after week may be limiting what he can do both in-game, and game-to-game. Regardless, the sample size isn't big enough to make either conclusion.

What I haven't seen: A consistent running game. We've also seen less downfield passing due to Kubiak's fear that Carr gets sacked in the pocket, or that he'll make a mistake throwing into double coverage (and watching the games, our receivers are always double covered on deeper routes... there's no incentive to keeping safeties or LB's around the pocket due to no running game, and no above average pass blocking).

Maybe that's why Carr's running numbers have gone up significantly... teams use the base defense up front (which is somehow still good enough to stop the run AND apply pressure to the QB), but they drop everybody else back in coverage... Carr has a good 5-10 yard cushion each time they do that, and Kubiak has let him know to take off if this situation comes up.

 

Babin is indeed out of football right now. Problem is, even though he's been out of football since the day we drafted him, he's still on our team.

 

Pacman's play was critical, but with the exception of Vince Young himself Tenn players even credited VY for being the difference. VY produced over 300 yards very efficiently without a lot of help. Now if you said Eli Manning was more critical to the Tennesse win than VY, you might have an argument, but not Pacman.

I have said it is possible Carr could be better than Big Ben, we just don't know because one has been in one of the most favirable situations and the other about the least favorable situation for a young QB.

Heck, Jay Cutler could lead his team to the playoffs this year (probably will), I can almost assure you will have the hgihest QB rating among rookies, and everyone will say he is the best QB/steal in the draft, but in truth we will have no idea if he is or will be better than the other rook QBs because he is in by far the easiest situation to succeed. As long as he doesn't totally suck, Denver is a well above average team and in the playoffs.

The Stealers didn't buid their team around Big Ben. They were a very solid team whom Big Ben fell into their laps after 1 mediocre year (lots of injuries) following a series of excellent years. Infact the Stealers had their Oline, RBs, WRs and defense in place, they just needed a QB who didn't totally suck to drive the bus. Big Ben got a Superbowl more like how Bard Johnson and Trent Dilfer got a Superbowl (drive the bus, try to not suck, though Big Ben did suck in the Superbowl and the previous year's 1st round playoff game that the Stealers managed to win despite him ), than one lead by a great playmaking QB (Montana, Farve, Brady) or as how a supremely efficient system QB (Aikman, Simms, late career Elway), etcs.

In short the jury is still out whether Big Ben is anything more than a good (not great) QB who hit the right situation. This year is looking more like that. And yes had Carr gone to the Stealers (say he feel to the teens like Big Ben did) I do think he would have a Superbowl ring. But I will say Big Ben and Carr both look a heck of lot better than Eli Manning.

 

playS; two interceptions and a 23-yard punt return. 17 of the titans' 24 points came on drives that started in giant territory and were courtesy of a play jones made. considering they kicked the game winner with 6 seconds left, you better believe cutting the field in half on three scoring drives was the single most pivitol element of their comeback.

few teams do. the colts had marvin harrison, tarik glenn, jeff saturday, their OC and OL coach ALL in place BEFORE they drafted peyton manning, PLUS marshall faulk (who they then used to draft james). every single one of them played/were on the sidelines sunday night, save james, of courese, who was replaced by ANOTHER first round pick.

manning plays with FIVE former first round picks. until this year, carr's played with ONE. moulds, taken in round 1 10 years ago, doubled the # this year.

 

Usually I'd agree with you here but what I'm doing here is stepping back and looking at the Texans from a different perspective. One can't help but notice that other teams that have made changes at the QB position have received great benefits on the field while the Texans under Carr are sort of just moping along. When I watch Carr lead the offense, I see no energy, no emotion at all. There is definitely something missing with this team and one can see it. All I see is play after play after play with precious few points being put on the board. That's what I find so disheartening about this season - they have somehow become mired into this low scoring rut and it doesn't appear that they will be climbing out this year. I honestly feel that deep down this team, contrary to their public statements, does not believe in David Carr.

For me, the Tennessee game was a turning point. If ever there was a chance for Carr to make a statement, that was the time for one. Instead, he crumbled and fell on his ass while it was Vince Young who showed himself to be every bit the leader we have been waiting for in Carr. He did it once again this past Sunday. I watched that game and I saw a guy with crappy stats who played with a steadfast determination and resolve - a guy who simply refused to give up. A guy whose team fed off that resolve and fought back to a win. In 5 years, I have never seen that type of will and determination coming from David Carr. That's what I and the others here, want to see from this guy so that we can start to believe again. Frankly, what I see a guy who is damaged and broken - a guy who may not ever be whole again.

That's what so maddening about Vince. His stats are just plain awful - moreso than those of Carr who, statistically, is stomping Vince. Yet, one can clearly see Vince Young growing better with each passing game while Carr appears to have leveled off into this twilight zone of mediocre play. The primary difference between Vince & David is one of attitude. Both play on crappy teams. Both teams lack talent on both sides of the ball. For Carr, this is just too much to overcome so he keeps plugging along from loss to loss saying all the right things afterward. With Vince, it's like he simply doesn't care because he BELIEVES in his ability to win. More importantly and this is something you appear to have dismissed or discounted, his TEAM believes in that as well. That's the core reason why these two teams appear to be going in different directions: the Titans KNOW they have the right guy while the Texans are still guessing after 5 years.

I simply have no explanation for this turn of events. If anything, Carr should have been re-energized by the arrival of Kubiak. Instead, he's regressing. That's the major reason why I think that like Joey Harrington, a change of scenery may well be what he needs now. The bad history he's lived through in Houston appears to be too much for him to overcome.

I really feel bad for Kubiak because I think he is in the proverbial no-win situation. It was his decision to pass on VY. Now, no matter what he does, short of winning a Super Bowl, he will find himself overshadowed by what Vince Young and the Titans do in the years to come. Unless he is (somehow) able to turn this franchise around, the Texans will find themselves constantly mentioned in the same light as Portland who passed on Michael Jordan.

Carr does not look anything at all like the prolific Drew Bledsoe. No, Carr is closer to the Drew Bledsoe of today who hung on too long and has been benched once again in favor of a younger, more productive QB. I just making some personal observations here. It's not like I wanted them to pick VY because I didn't (I was for Reggie Bush or Matt Leinert). But Vince has shown me that he has that something that Carr lacks and to me that spells trouble for the Texans now and in the future.

 

Good post hillboy. the above pretty much sums it up.
Its like this team is just infected with mediocrity and losing. Every position other than QB is blamed for causing this. What if the supposed leader position of QB is the one that is infusing this loser attitude?

I'm not saying we are set at every postition, just that its time to deal with QB after 5 years

 

The tying TD was for 76 yards, another was 46 yards. VY accounted for 318 of the Titans 343 yards. The Titans would not have won without heroics by Pacman, but the same is true for Vince Young as well, and I would not say Pacman was more instrumental--the Tenn players with the exception of VY couldn't stop talking about VY's play.

Some franchise QBs do start on the bottom--Aikman, McNabb, Elway, and their teams successfully built from there.

Some others have some key parts but far from a complete team--both Mannings, Palmer, Vick.

However few franchise QBs get the oppertunnity to come into a situation like Big Ben or Cutler, where solid QB play is about all they need to be very formidable teams. Even for Dan Marino, who everyone says is the model rookie QB of all time (and probably is), people still forget that he came into a playoff team as a late 1st round pick.

In Carr case he has been in one of the worst situations of the young QBs taken at the top of the draft. I am not saying he will ever be an excellent QB, but I wouldn't write him off just yet. He didn't start with much talent, and little talent has been added. In fact I think Carr is more promising than Joey Harrington (they other guy stuck in a terrible situation), and look at what putting him around a better team has done for him.

 

in other words, upgrade the qb and that’ll instantly improve the running game, the run blocking, the pass protection, the lack of playmakers on defense …

someTHING? try many, many, many things.

again, you're suggesting that if the texans had a better qb, or a qb the players believed in, they would start catching critical passes they’re currently dropping, holding onto the football instead of fumbling it, not committing ill-timed, back-breaking penalties, making field goals…? you honestly believe that?

i would agree with the former; carr has shown a tendency to pucker in critical situations, though, admittedly, the sample size IS small and he did respond to the tennessee game with a really solid effort (good enough for his team to win) in new york against (at the time) a really good giant team.

as for blowing young’s horn… he completed 7 passes and totaled 131 yards of total offense against the texans. suck it, joe montana! one of his TD drives was all of 24 yards. eat AIDS, tom brady! the texans’ five turnovers, coupled with tennessee scoring both a defensive and special teams TD were FAR more important that the endless greatness of vince young. rot in hell, john elway!

be careful; id really hate for vince to tear up your esophagus…

i, btw, DIDN’T watch the game, but what i read about and saw in highlights were two awful coaching decisions by the giants, even poorer execution by the players (including a guy literally GIVING UP on what would have been a game-ending sack) and three critical plays by pacman jones that shortened tennessee’s playing field on THREE scoring drives. none of this had ANYTHING to do with vince young and the titans don't sniff victory without all of them happening, vince or no vince.

now, young DID take advantage of these things, and to the that, he deserves an enormous amount of credit. otherwise, relax the jaw muscle.

in both the texan and giant games, tennessee’s defense forced 7 total turnovers; 4 of vince’s 5 scoring drives started in opponent territory. that makes things A LOT easier on any qb, especially a rookie.

the texan defense has forced 11 turnovers… all year. but sure, let's pretend vince is the reason... i bet his magical powers FORCED those turnovers. jeez, i don't even know why the titans bother dressing 21 other players.......

everyone offensively is, by and large, regressing, including the coach. not sure why. perhaps it IS carr; i'm honestly not sure. happened in 2004, too.

sure, let's go ahead and put vince young in michael jordan's stratosphere... seems completely logical after 8 pro starts...

if kubiak turns the team around, vince young is rendered irrelevant. until then, he’s an easy lightening rod for lazy fans. the only qb i care about is the texans' qb. vince young and the 30 other nfl qbs can **** themselves.

an opportunistic defense? a running game? oh, no - right, right - magic powers to make everyone around him better and to play above and beyond their talent level....

 

Can't be much worse than what we got right now.

Absolutely. and I hope everyone else does by the end of the season, otherwise we will be having this same discussion next year. If they have hope they will try harder, this team has a losing mentality.


Ric, if you didn't watch the Titans game don't talk about it. Vince brought a attitude that the rest of the team believed in and thats why they won, something Carr can't do. Winning is contagious, and so is losing.

 

so, again, we're claiming that some players possess magical powers that make teammates better and want to play harder? and that's the reason the titans have won 4 of the 7 games young has started? and i suppose in their 3 losses, he was wearing a cap or something, that hindered these magical powers from being fully realized, or....?

"attitude" has won exactly.... let me count them up here... (carry the 1)... zero football games in the history of ever. talent, good coaching, sound systems, execution, scouting, preparation - you know, things that actually exist in the real world - are the reason teams win.

on sunday, the titans were the benefactors of poor coaching, poorer execution, and, yes, some terrific play from several players, including young, jones and the guy who kicked the gamewinning field goal who, btw, missed a gamewinning field goal just three weeks ago. young must've left the stadium early that day......

 

Ever hear those quotes "Jordon made the players around him better, etc"

 

again with jordan...?

but yeah, sure, he did - know how? by being a dominant offensive and defensive force that demanded the other team focus on him, opening lanes, spaces, closing lanes, spaces... games are a lot easier when you play with teammates like michael jordan. but he didn't make ordinary players extraordinary.

notice how the wizards didn't get "better" by his mere presence....? that none of them benfited playing with a physically declining jordan? if he had some magical" intangible" to make players better, did that just coincidently decline at the same time?

 

Jordan didn't make players around him better... until his teams actually got BETTER players.

Its the same thing Kobe is going through now... as soon as they either get better players than Odom and Kwame, or Bynum develops, he will always be considered as a guy who's a scorer and not a winner.

 

Maybe not so much as the upgrade the QB but upgrade the QB's ATTITUDE. And the rest of the team for that matter. Look, I'm not for a minute pretending that removing Carr will solve the myriad of deficiencies the Texans face. Far from it. It's too late in the season for a miracle turnaround but it's not too late for an attitudinal turnaround. If they don't do anything else this season, if Kubiak accomplishes one goal this year let it be the end of the defeatist, loser mentality that has permeated this entire organization. I want him to deliver the message loud and clear that what has happened before and what is happening now will not be tolerated and to show the door any player who can't get with the program and start BELIEVING in this team. And the no. 1 player who needs to get that message is David Carr. I want him to show us in no uncertain terms that he really IS the man for the job. Until that happens, nothing will change no matter how many good players Kubiak brings into the organization. Nothing will change until these guys start believing they can win. That's how Jimmy Johnson turned around the Cowboys and that's how Kubiak will have to turn this franchise around.

In a sense, yes I do. It's called leadership. You can't expect men to go into battle behind a leader who expects to lose and that's what you are asking these guys to do. A defeatist attitude has infected this entire team and what you described is the end result particularly with the lack of mental toughness. Watch how Carr starts the game on Sunday. Watch how he goes out there expecting to fail and watch him essentially give up at the first sign of trouble. The other guys see that and they feed off that and somewhere along the way, they stop playing with focus and determination and the result is what you have been seeing on the field. They are losing WINNABLE games because of this and I submit that is what really hacks off a lot of the guys here. I can accept losses if they play hard. What I can no longer accept is losing in the manner we are seeing from this team.

I think you completely missed my point about VY. I'm not making him out to be the second coming at QB. Far from it. In fact, it would be better for us if Vince were to fall flat on his ass and fail and morph into Quincy Carter. I used to think that there was no way with his quirks that he would make a top-flight QB in the NFL. After Sunday, I can no longer say that because I saw a guy who reminded me of Joe Montana in his refusal to lose. He played with a grit, determination I have never seen from Carr. He played inspired football and it was that inspiration that lifted his entire team upward and made the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Frankly, I was stunned and amazed at what I was seeing and I couldn't help but wonder why we aren't seeing this from Carr.

If anything, it's Carr who looking more and more like he won't make it. I know Young's stats look like crap compared to Carr's. After all he is rookie QB with a long way to go. But stats alone don't tell the complete story. I sense something in his demeanor that I just don't sense in Carr (the Force is strong with young Vince ). Unlike Carr, he appears to relish the idea of battle. His belief in himself is so great that it infects the others on his team and they start believing as well. What you saw Sunday was the result. The Titans were able to come back and win not just because the Giants F'd up (which they did in spades). No, they were able to come back because they were following a guy who refused to give into despair - a guy who was determined to win. They actually BELIEVED that they could win because HE believed they could win. And that is the difference between the Titans and the Texans. I really can't explain it any other way.

Your points are well taken sarcasm aside. And actually, we are in agreement on everything you have posted here. But too me it's not that cut and dried. There's something else that's missing. Ask yourself this: Exactly WHY it is the Titans who are still fighting while it is the Texans who are going through the motions? Why does a rookie QB look more poised and secure out there compared to our 5 year veteran QB? Should it really be that way? I feel that the answers we and Kubiak seek cannot be found in mere statistics alone. Yes, this team lacks quality football talent but so do other teams and they don't look as bad as the Texans. No I believe this team lacks something more fundamental: it lacks heart. I guess the answers I'm looking for are more spiritual that physical and that's about the best way I can explain myself. In about In 2 weeks, you will see up close exactly what I've been trying to say.

 

VY has a long way to go as a pro QB.

But he does make the players around him a lot more effective by his presence. His presence in terms of extremely rare athleticism for his size, throwing ability, poise and leadership. Look at Texas Longhorn results this year despite more of its lettermen returning than other national powers. They sorely lacked in skill, and even more in leadership. Look at how better the Titans team play with him versus Kerry Collins- a proven pro QB though one with some known skill (lack of mobility) and leadership limitations. It is a combination of things with Vince Young, he is effective and makes his team better as a mere baby pro QB--it is impressive, and his teammates already know their outlook as a team around him is bright.

I am not saying it is totally unique. Look at the drop off of other superior athlete QBs like McNair in his peak, or McNabb in his peak, or Steve Young, when they went out via injury. They create so many oppertunities for other guys with their arms, legs, toughness and mind. This is what I believe we will see from VY, maybe as early as the end of next year. He is already effective knowing very little compared to what he will by year 2 or year 3 in the NFL. The sky is the limit given his total package.

 

Their defense is worse in yards and points than the Texans. The Titans have an argument for the weakest defense in the league so far--the only team bottom 3 in both yards and points (you can add sacks in as well). Pacman as a CB/PR is one of their only bright spots.

The Titans and Texas are both very 1 dimensonal. The Texans' D is bad and they can't run the football, the Titans D is bad and they can't throw much (rookie QB & just bottom of the barrell receivers available). I would say the Titans are doing better playing to their strengths and just sacing up as a team with the talent they do have. Also I guess if you had to choose a running game only is preferrable to a passing game only particularly when you D sucks, because you can reduce possesions.

I see Kubiak in a quandry. You don't get much from your run but if you give up on it than opponents tee off on Carr, and he like most NFL QBers have a really hard time consistently throwing when defenses know they are throwing. Combine this with a D that bends a lot (yards/points) and hasn't forced TOs, tough situation to win, and no quick fixes unless you call improving the running game and overall defense quick fixes. I realy don't believe replacing Carr anytime soon is the right plan (maybe if he is struggling next year with an accompanying running game and better defense).