Rewriting of the history of the era? Don't flatter yourself, glynch, by brushing off criticism as confusion. Some Vets do, some don't - each is entitled to their opinion. You made the choice NOT to 'put your butt on the line' so don't pass that off as having some higher morality.
Every time you want to call someone something you think is derogatory I'll just take it for myself. I don't know where you were in 1971 but I was draftbait with #33 in the lottery. Your goddam right I would do everything I could think of to dodge the draft. Idiotic policy and idiotic strategy were killing and maming my friends and my generation. The war had been determined to be unwinnable by president Johnson as early as 1968 but still it was acceptable to send American youths to the meatgrinder. Dodging the draft was an exercise in sanity in an insane world. Are you signed up to go to Iraq yet?
Dearly beloved We are gathered here today 2 get through this thing called life Electric word life It means forever and that's a mighty long time But I'm here 2 tell u There's something else The afterworld A world of never ending happiness U can always see the sun, day or night So when u call up that shrink in Beverly Hills U know the one - Dr Everything'll Be Alright Instead of asking him how much of your time is left Ask him how much of your mind, baby 'Cuz in this life Things are much harder than in the afterworld In this life You're on your own And if de-elevator tries 2 bring u down Go crazy - punch a higher floor If u don't like the world you're living in Take a look around u At least u got friends U see I called my old lady 4 a friendly word She picked up the phone Dropped it on the floor (Sex, sex) is all I heard Are we gonna let de-elevator Bring us down Oh, no Let's Go! Let's go crazy Let's get nuts Let's look 4 the purple banana 'Til they put us in the truck, let's go! We're all excited But we don't know why Maybe it's cuz We're all gonna die And when we do (When we do) What's it all 4 (What's it all 4) U better live now Before the grim reaper come knocking on your door Tell me, are we gonna let de-elevator bring us down Oh, no let's go! Let's go crazy Let's get nuts Look 4 the purple banana 'Til they put us in the truck, let's go! C'mon baby Let's get nuts Yeah Crazy Let's go crazy Are we gonna let de-elevator bring us down Oh, no let's go! Go crazy I said let's go crazy (Go crazy) Let's go, let's go Go Let's go Dr. Everything'll be alright Will make everything go wrong Pills and thrills and dafodills will kill Hang tough children He's coming He's coming Coming
Feel free. So I'm confused. Did you dodge the draft or not? Your choice, your opinion. Stupid argument - I support the intervention in Iraq so I must sign up or be a hypocrite? Hardly. We have an all volunteer force now, but if I was drafted to go to Iraq or anywhere else - certainly I would go. I would not dodge the draft.
My draft story, which I told here before, is confusing. I was called for my physical, but I wiffed it and showed up a week late, I had to swear I didn't miss on purpose (I didn't, I was just stoned and missed it) I went back into the process to be called for another physical day but they never called me and 6 months later the draft was ended. I had my one and only bout of asthma that year and spent 3 days in the TCU infirmary. I later heard that the doctors somehow reported my asthma to the draft board but I don't know if that happened. All the while I was ****ting bricks that I was going to have to move to Canada because I was not going to Viet Nam. I did later apply for the US Navy reserves to qualify for flight training but I failed the eye test. If you were there then, I feel like you would have felt differently about the draft. It was pretty intense and there was no 9/11 patriotism, just despair and futility. There were no good choices.
Hmmm, I would think that if Clinton would of instituted the draft for Rwanda, somehow your arguement wouldnt hold. Before you say it, I know its not a logical situation, the point is that if it would of been ol Bill and a place you didnt agree with, that you are in fact lying. And its NOT a stupid argument. I remain ASTOUNDED that to YOU it is ok to send honorable veterans to die for a lie. To give up their families (if their family is left after a few years away) over Bushs lies. But you find it so Necessary and needed but arent running to align yourselves on the front lines. Vets dont need people telling them how they volunteered for the force and how its their JOB to go under any circumstance.
I want to make clear a distinction here because it is very important to me. On the one hand - I have absolutely no sympathy for the people who are in the reserve who fled to Canada when they were told they were being sent to Iraq. These people of their own volition signed contracts. Most of them that I have seen or heard interviewed say that they did so for the money, but when they found out they were going to have to deal with the consequences of taking that money, they didn't want to deal with it. In my mind, once you are signed up, you are signed up. You don't get to choose whether you think it is a moral war or not, you have signed away that right. If you don't like it, don't sign the contract in the first place and go work at McDonalds. As far as I'm concerned they should be tied to the front of Hummers and driven around Baghdad with targets on their chests to ferret out snipers. They are not standing on any sort of "moral high ground". On the other hand - When it comes to the Vietnam war we are talking about conscripts. These people never entered into any agreement that required them to fight, and particularly in the case of a situation like Vietnam, there was no direct threat to the United States. I perfectly understand given the situation why someone might try to avoid that and run to Canada. My point really is that it is more complex than "avoid service good/avoid service bad" but that the discussion seemed to be devolving into that.
I'm not dodging the question! If drafted I would fight - period. That answers the question and covers all possibilities. I voted for Clinton and not for Bush - so stop making idiotic assumptions. I also favored an intervention in Rwanda and Bosnia - and if called would have served. It is a stupid argument because it totalizes our beliefs. I believe we should help the poor. Does that mean I drop all the other things I believe in and work 7 days a week in a soup kitchen? I don't think so. I believe we should help the poor and I believe we should intervene in Iraq - I can't do both to the hilt - does that mean I'm lying or a hypocrite? No. By your logic if you are against the intervention you should have quit your job and been camped outside the White House protesting the last couple of years. Or are you just an 'armchair protester?' We have an all volunteer force to enact our foreign policy so the assertion that everyone who supports that policy should run and join is spurious at best. As far as 'dying for lies' that is your opinion. I favored the intervention sans a connection between al quaeda and saddam and without any weight given to yellow cake or aluminum tubes. So even if those we 'lies' rather than mistakes (again your opinion not fact) there is a substantial amount of rationale why the intervention is good and desirable (in my opinion) and worth sending our armed forces to accomplish. Not sure who was doing that - I'd imagine they already know that.
There are no possible exceptions to this rule? None? If that's the case, Hitler would have loved you in Nazi Germany. You'd have fit right in. I know that's an extreme example, but my point is that you're taking the position that your countries government supercedes your own moral position no matter what. I strongly believe that the United States is the greatest country in the world, but even still, we haven't always been in the right and we won't always be right in the future. Personally, I tend to agree with Thoreau when he said "The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think is right." or MLK when he said "One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws." If I believe something is unjust, I won't support it. That is definitely a statement I can feel confident about ending with a period. Yours, not so much.
You caught me too quick. I admit my point needed more clarification. It has been revised in the minutes that have passed since.
Fair enough. Its not that I can't conceive a possibility where I wouldn't (there is a coup and we live in a fascist regime - I'd be more likely fighting in the resistance), its that I wouldn't dodge the draft for any of the wars we've fought that I can think of, including Vietnam. I think our wars are outcomes of our democratic process and as a citizen I owe it to the country, and to my fellow citizens who would be abiding by the draft, to serve. I don't think you can have an effective military when anyone can opt out for whatever reason they can come up with (like I was so stoned). I favor the volunteer military precisely because it is more professional and effective, IMO, but I would serve if called because the draft would signify a need. I think its sad that the presumption now is FOR dodging the draft instead of abiding by it. Without it we well could have lost the civil war, WWII, and Korea and who knows what else. I grew up in a military family and am close to the issue. I am not blind to policymaking and don't believe every decision by the government is the correct one - nor however, do I feel that you should just opt out of anything you find that is unpopular.
What a red herring to say that the presumption now is FOR dodging the draft. That is bs,but perhaps you heard that as a kid. The issue is not about opting out of anything just because it is unpopular. Another red herriing. BTW the country was conned into making the decision to go to war, so I don't think you can even really claim demcratic process trumps individual conscience-- even if that is your belief. Of course you have expressed no concern over this con job. I think you would be useful at Abu Graib. In other threads you have justified torture, death squads. A real nut cutter. I guess you see it as sufficient that under pain of going to jail you would obey the draft. Cheer for wars and let others fight if there is no draft. How honorable. Is that what you learned growing up in a military family? Curious. BTW, , even the military recorgnizes conscientious objection. Comparing Iraq or Vietnam with WW II is typical bs. I suppose you are of the Rummy Bush Cheney School who claimed Sadam was on par wth Hitler. My father was in dental school with the military during WW II and he said the had to give them frequent pep talks and tell them that the army needed dentists at the front, so they had to swallow their shame and not drop out to go volunteer for the war. Right wing voluntary wars don't engender that type of support, much to your chagrin.
I don't understand why you have to keep equating opinions opposite your own as belonging to 'kids' or having been developed 'as kids.' It is fairly insulting and has no basis in fact. And on the contrary, the unpopularity of the Vietnam war is an oft cited reference when speaking of the legitimacy of dodging the draft. Certainly I can - I chose not to believe the ridiculous excuses of the Congress who now claim they were duped. The evidence was there for them to see and they - as our representatives - chose to support the war. If you believe they were all duped by the administration - like Michael said to Kay - 'who's being naive now.' Second, there is no draft - so this argument is moot. The armed forces are not policymakers - they are the hard edge of diplomacy. We do NOT WANT the military making political decisions or overriding our civilian government's decisions. Our representative government makes decisions and we live with them, and if there WAS a draft I certainly believe I would serve by my fellow citizens who were also called to fight. I thought you said you were moving above the personal? Like I said originally, to sleep at night after turning your back on your country and your fellow citizen soldiers, you'll conjure everyone who WOULD serve up as some sort of monster automaton. Whatever helps you sleep at night, glynch. I would serve if drafted - jail doesn't come into it. Actually I learned that you serve when your country calls (something you never learned) and that you never volunteer for anything (something you certainly learned). But methinks you didn't go to jail for your principles, did you glynch? Didn't go burn your card at the police station, huh? Ran off to Canada did you? So spare us your trumpets of principles. Did you get conscientious status, glynch? Fill us in. No, as usual you can't see past your burning draft card. I said had anyone been able to opt out of the draft we might well have lost the Civil War (see Irish riots over the draft) or WWII or Korea. I'm sure that was a comfort when you tucked tail and ran to Canada. Hey they need loggers in Canada, right?
