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Krugman: Does Obama Have the Balls to Take on the Right Wingers?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Aug 14, 2009.

  1. rudan

    rudan Member

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    Its funny when democrats whine about bipartisanship when they are the ones that are trying to ram this onto us. True bipartisanship would listen to the opposition and compromise. This bill lacks zero compromise/zero republican support, so its a partisan democrat bill that only union/welfare democrats want :mad:
     
  2. Refman

    Refman Member

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    If you think bi-partisanship exists in the Democratic party either, then you are fully delusional and should probably check yourself in for treatment.

    By the way, it isn't like the healthcare bill has the support of all the Democrats either. There are, IIRC, 9 or 10 Democrats that have not expressed their support of the bill.

    The reason it has not come for a vote is likely because it, in fact, does not have the votes to pass.
     
  3. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Bingo.

    The Dems are so worried about having a bipartisan bill that Obama wanted it passed by the August recess, which would have left little or no time for debate after the congressional aides analyzed the 1,000 pages so the congresspeople would even know what they were voting for or against.
     
  4. Major

    Major Member

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    What does one have to do with the other? Do you think 3 months was not enough time for a bipartisan bill to come out of each chamber, but it was for a partisan bill? :confused: And Obama never wanted health care passed by August recess. He wanted a bill to come out of each chamber by then so reconciliation - where the important details get worked out - could be done throughout the fall and a final bill could be passed towards the end of the year. The full schedule was more than 6 months.

    Given that the bills were being crafted in pieces over many months, committee by committee, there was plenty of time to keep up with the details, especially since the bills were public and accessible by about 6 billion people worldwide.
     
  5. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Right. It was plenty of time. Hell, the Congresspeople aren't actually going to read it anyway...kind of like the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005.

    I do dissent regarding each chamber passing it by August being no big deal. It is a big deal. Anytime a Representative or Senator registers a vote, it is a part of the record. To suggest that they willy nilly pass a sweeping healthcare reform thinking that "eh, we'll hash out the details in reconciliation committee" bothers me.
     
  6. glynch

    glynch Member

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  7. logicx

    logicx Member

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    It bothers me as well. There's an arrogance there combined with a massive stupidity that's just awe-inspiring.
     
  8. Major

    Major Member

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    How long do you believe is the appropriate amount of time for them to consider health care legislation? Keep in mind the Dem party and liberal & conservative think tanks have been doing intense research on the subject for more than a decade, so all the facts and figures and basic information and options are already there to start. So from that point, how much time do you believe is necessary to craft legislation?
     
  9. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Yet he failed on even getting a bill passed through either chamber by August.


    You are correct on TARP and my mistake. I was confusing that with the GM bailout where talk of that had started during the previous Admin. A stimulus package had been talked about during the last part of the previous Admin. so the discussion for it was on the way. There obviously was opposition on it but it wasn't quite as vocal as the current one and Obama and there wasn't oppposition from the Democrats with a few Republicans voting for it too.
     
  10. Major

    Major Member

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    He's "failed" on lots of little procedural and timing things. The stimulus bill took a few weeks longer than he had hoped as well. That kind of stuff happens - but the end results have always been there so far.

    At the end of the day, his goal is to get a solid health care bill through. I really don't think he cares whether it happens Dec 1 or Jan 1 or Feb 1. You have to set deadlines or nothing will ever happen in Congress - it's how the process works.

    The discussion started last winter, but that was after the election when Obama was talking about getting one passed ASAP when he got into office. But it certainly had plenty of vocal opposition - 11 Dems in the House voted against it, GOP governors vocally refused some funds, Perry suggested secession, it inspired all the tea parties, etc. It wasn't as vocal as what you see now, but it also wasn't as big a bill - it was a one time thing instead of an overhaul of the system. But the point is, while the methods don't always look great, he's gotten what he's wanted so far using his methods.
     
  11. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    ^ I will point out that nobody was talking about the stimulus bill as Obama's Waterloo. The battle lines are a lot more clearly drawn on this bill than they were on the stimulus bill.
     
  12. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Long enough to actually review the entirety of the bill (over 1,000 pages), do the analysis and have meaningful open debate on the floor.

    Tell me...does 3 months cover that? I am not quite sure.
     
  13. Refman

    Refman Member

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    In this day and age, the process fails to work. The last bill that was rushed through without debate was BAPCPA of 2005. That turned out to be a disaster.

    We can ill-afford to have a healthcare bill become a legislative disaster.
     
  14. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    And yet the status quo is indefensible morally and economically and you have powerful interests working against a decent reform bill... I'd consider anything that comes out of this better than what we have now. Still, if you want good substantial reform, do your part... call and write and donate. It takes a national effort to pass something as major as good health care reform and it only happens occasionally in our political history. The odds are very much against it and it will definitely be messy, but I think for this generation, it's now or never. If enough people involve themselves in the process instead of sitting back and waiting for elected officials to do all the work for them, then the process will work.
     
  15. Major

    Major Member

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    Where do you get the idea that there hasn't been debate on health care reform? :confused: We've had years of debate in the public realm, and months of it in Congress - that's more than virtually any other bill that goes through Congress (and rightfully so, since it's also more complicated than most bills). They've gone through literally dozens of different core ideas and ways of structuring the bill. There are debates going on in something like 6 or 7 major Congressional committees. Options have been evaluated, discussed, re-evaluated, thrown out, brought back in, etc. There is now a month of public town-halls going on. What exactly are you looking for in terms of public debate?
     
  16. Refman

    Refman Member

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    Exactly the reason we had better get it right. If you pass something that ends up being a powder keg, they will be scrapping it within a few years. I am more scared of what we would have then than what we have now.

    You are a lot more optimistic than I. When I was a younger man, I used to write and call my representatives, only to get the typical canned answers and no real consideration. The process is broken, because regardless what happens, I don't have the checkbook the special interest groups do.

    Is this open debate on the floor of the entire chamber regarding this specific bill? No. Generally, you will have a much less important bill scheduled for debate on the floor. You have not had this with the healthcare bill presently under consideration.

    Public debate and town halls are a nice dog and pony show. I would rather Congress to roll up their sleeves and openly debate the specifics OF THIS BILL...ON THE OPEN FLOOR. It will become apparent what provisions are problematic. From there, debate can happen to fix it. This is the best way to get reform passed expeditiously and getting it right the first time.

    The town hall meetings are a joke. They are not about getting the ideas from the constituents. They are about insulating the leeches from any perceived political backlash from their eventual vote. I understand why they want to do that, but it is like watching a chihuahua **** a stuffed animal. It's funny...but ultimately not very productive.
     
  17. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    jumping in late


    the point bnb made I think in the first post is that obama is first giving the image of bipartanship so he won't be seen as forcing this huge policy down everyone's throats.

    it may take extra and some compomise but he certainly won' t be blamed for bullying and in the end, the opposition will be shown not to have an alternative
     
  18. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090817...Ec2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yeQRzbGsDb2JhbWFiYWNrc2F3


    That's a long article - here's the link. I'm ready to call this an epic fail.

    [​IMG]
     
    #58 rhadamanthus, Aug 17, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
  19. rimrocker

    rimrocker Member

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    Interesting take you have there. Senator Kyl notes that it doesn't matter what concessions the Dems make to Repubs...

    This is not really news as it has been evident from the start, but it is refreshing to hear it put so bluntly... Repubs care more about partisan political advantage than they do health care for Americans. No matter what, they will not support health care reform as long as Dems are poised to receive some of the credit.

    So, now that the obstructionism is out in the open, time to pin the "Party of No" label on the Repubs and cram reform through regardless of what the drama queens yell. Still, the question is... do the Dems have the balls?
     
  20. insane man

    insane man Member

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    so tell me which individual from your party has actually done that so far? except for of course sarah palin who through her meticulous research found out about the death panels buried in the thousand pages.

    the fact is, congressmen and women NEVER review entire bills. it just doesn't happen. all the people who are demanding more time for appropriate review never did for the patriot act or various other disturbingly voluminous laws passed regularly. to make it a huge thing here, is disingenuous.

    as far as lack of moderateness. the entire bill is full of mediocrity which is inspired from this at times absurd desire for bipartisanship. the left doesn't want a public option, it wants a single payer. the whole notion of a public option is compromise.
     

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