I see you ignored this quetsion, so I will quote it for you again: It's not that complex. A lot of the things that folks don't like Kobe for...the things we see Kobe do on the court...we rarely saw MJ do those things. I watched MJ's whole career and rarely remember him elbowing a dude when he was on the ground or throwing bows at dudes throats, and this is including the times he was playing the bad boys and they thought they were MMA fighters every time he drove to the basket. You rarely watched a Bulls game and walked away saying "Man MJ is such an *******". Why do you think folks rode his nuts so much...he was likeable. KOBE IS NOT, and that's the difference. Great player yes...likeable no....
I think it's a bit different... from Day 1 Jordan was something the league hadn't seen - he was an evolutionary step in basketball. He took on the legends and beat them (and there were some serious legends in the game at the time). He took on Bird and Bird called him "God disguised as Michael Jordan". He was a combination of Bernard King and Dr. J in their primes and then some. He came into the league and was dunking on big men in a time when going into the paint meant you could lose teeth. This was when they were asking "yeah, he dunked in college but will he be able to do it in the NBA?" He just defied the odds - no one expected how great he would be. Kobe, on the other hand, is not really an evolutionary step up... it's like people look at him and say "yeah, but MJ did most of that and then some". The other thing that probably irritates people, as others have said, is that Kobe's actions and mannerisms are just a copying of MJ's. I'm not saying his game is a copy, but his actual mannerisms. It was spooky at times. Almost as if he had some psychological issues where he had to be an MJ clone. He also has acted like a spoiled brat since he came into the league - something Jordan didn't do. Off the top of my head, since the 1980's, there have been only a handful of players I define as "game changers", meaning they have completely changed the way the game was played or we say "this guy is something unique". Shaq, MJ, and Magic are 3. You can throw Hakeem in there if you want with his contributions to the pivot. Lebron is the next in that line if he stays healthy. I can't think of too many more in that timespan.
I just gotta focus on this one cause it's been an irritating point for me over the last few years. What exactly is the Shaq situation? Telling management when asked if they should keep the other star player on the team who IS NOT pulling his weight and acting professional(deciding to wait until the season starts to get surgery done that he could have done in the summer; reporting to camp in shape) that they might as well let him go? If so then I have no problem with that from Kobe's perspective and even thought we don't know for sure, I am willing to bet MJ would have felt the same way if Scottie Pippen decided to act like that in say 96-97 after winning 4 titles. Just my opinion. Folks bring up Kobe whining. Whining about calls is what I'm guessing it is. Well guess what, it's 2009, EVERY flippin NBA star whines about calls all day long. Kobe, Dwade, Lebron(Mr. Crabdribble), Tim Duncan, KG. They all b*tch and whine all game long about calls not just Kobe, thats just part of the sad evolution of NBA players and it's unfortunate. If MJ was a spry young player in today's league, do you really think he wouldn't be doing the same? It's all gamesmanship. Kobe demanding to be traded- once again the evolution of NBA players. It's nothing new for a star to demand to be traded. Last time I checked, Shaq demanded to be traded from the Heat. Vince demanded a trade. That's how it goes in todays league when the going gets tough. Some players stick through it and some don't, I don't dislike them for it. Today's game is a business plain and simple. We don't know how far Kobe was willing to push the trade demand. Maybe he was using it as a wakeup call to Mitch,Phil and Dr. Buss to do something about the roster, we just don't know. In MJ's day, most players were tougher, we know that already and they stuck with what they had for the most part. Who knows what MJ would have done if he was in Kobe's situation? We don't know. I like MJ and I like Kobe, I can appreciate both of them on the court regardless of antics. Same with KG, same with Shaq, Duncan etc.
I like to agree. I'm no big fan of Kobe, but Jordan finger wagging at Mutombo after he dunked on him. Jordan shooting free throws with his eyes closed, thats as arrogant an act as there is...The pre game powder thing JORDAN started, though its all in fun but Garnett and Lebron sometimes are considered douches for doing it. Multiple retirements to "prove a point", freaking playing BASEBALL, I mean what kinda player does that? Can Kobe quit at the height of his career and try to play soccer for the LA Galaxy? Jordan was very good not putting bad stuff out there to be seen, very media and public savvy for sure. I know we can only go off what we see, but to me whats the big difference between a Grade A a-hole that conceals it or a more public a-hole? An jerk on the court is better than a on-court nice guy thats cruel to his family and teammates. Not like internet wasnt around Jordan's last few seasons, but camera phones and youtube and TMZ are much more prominent to get all the off-the-court misbehaviors for public consumption. Though it somehow seems to sting Kobe more than others
i'd be willling to bet that 90% of the players in the league don't want a piece of ron ron, cause they know he'd do it while most of the players in the league will only front.
i think you could throw Horry in there as a big who shoots real well. also Dirk, and maybe yao. i think kobe gets hated on because he just does it in a smug way.
Since 1980 Magic (I think Magic was more versatile, sorry) Jordan Bryant Dream Bird Shaq (poor free throw shooting pushes him down the list) Duncan Drexler Isiah McHale If they're not on my list, it's because they haven't won a ring.
As far as accomplishments...Kobe is not even close to Jordan Michael Jordan Hall of Fame Class of 2009 6 titles as the # 1 option 6 Finals MVP's 5 NBA MVP's (got robbed in 97 of a 6th) 10 scoring titles All-time highest scoring average for career (includes Wizards seasons) All-time highest Playoff scoring average 10 All-NBA 1st Team selections (Made 2nd Team as a Rookie) 1 Defensive Player of the Year Rookie of the Year 1984-85 3 All-Star Game MVP's 14-time All-star 3rd All-time on the scoring (in 14.25 seasons) behind Kareem and Malone. 6 seasons with atleast 200 steals (another 3 seasons with 196,182, & 180) 2 seasons with atleast 120 blocks. 6 seasons with atleast 500 total rebounds (2 others with 497 and 492) Shot 50% fg for his CAREER. Shot 32 % 3pt fg for his career Shot 42 % 3pt fg in 1996 (4 % higher than Kobe's highest %) Shot 83.5 % Free Throws for his career Shot 972 Free throws in 1987 (highest total for his career) Highest PPG average in a single season since Wilt Chamberlain (37.1 in 1987) Led the league in Total Minutes played 10 times Led the league in Minutes Per Game 2 times Played in atleast 80 games for 11 seasons Led the Bulls to 72 victories in 1996 (most all time for a regular season Highest Scoring Average for a Finals Series (41 ppg) Most Consecutive 20+ point games in Finals (35 games) Most Consecutive 40+ point games in Finals (4 games) Most Points in a half in a Finals Game (35 points vs. Portland 1992) Most 3 pt fg's made in a half of a finals game (6 tied with Kenny Smith) Kobe Bryant *Active player 3 NBA Titles (all as 2nd option w/ the most dominating player in Shaq) 0 NBA Finals MVP's (explains why he wasn't the 1st option) 1 NBA MVP (2008) 2 NBA scoring Titles (Basically did what Tmac did in Orlando) 2nd Highest point total in a single game (81 points) 11-time All Star 3 All-Star Game MVP's 7 All-NBA 1st Team Selections 2 All-NBA 2nd Team Selections 2 All-NBA 3rd Team Selections 7 All-NBA Defensive 1st Team Selections 2 All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team Selections NBA All-rookie 2nd Team 1997 Led the league in total points 4 times 1 season with over 180 steals 0 seasons with over 70 blocks 2 seasons with atleast 500 total rebounds 45% Career fg % 34% career 3pt fg % Never shot higher than 38.3 % 3 pointers Shot 84% for his career Shot 819 free throw attempts in 2006 (highest total for his career) Has never led the league in Total Minutes Played Has never led the league in Minutes Per Game Played in atleast 80 games for 5 seasons. As yall can see, there is no comparison as far as greatest player of all time goes between Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. It is fair to say that they a have similar skillset but that is as far as I'll go with this comparison. Michael Jordan with the same coach and less talent won MUCH more and accomplished MUCH more individually even up til age 35. The only thing I can say that Kobe is better at in stretches is 3 point shooting and range. Jordan wasn't a great 3 point shooter and didnt shoot many 3's. His mid range was unstoppable so why bother? I didn't even mention that he twice came back from retirement and still continued to succeed. I mentioned all of the Finals records Michael Jordan had. Kobe Bryant has had 2 of the worst shooting performances by a star player in the NBA Finals. In 2004 he shot 37% from the floor vs. the Pistons on 23 shots per game, even though he had Shaq in his prime, Karl Malone (2-3 games) and Gary Payton in his starting lineup. Lakers lose in 5 games In 2008 vs. the Celtics he shot 41 % from the floor on 22 shots per game. In his defense his teammates did disappear but you can't play that poorly in the Finals as the best player of your team and after an MVP season. Lakers lose in 6 games. In Jordan's "worst" finals series, at age 33, he shot 41 % vs. the Sonics. However, in 3 of the games, he shot 48 % or better and his team had a 3-0 lead after the 1st 3 games. Another stat, Jordan 6 Finals Appearances: 6 Titles Kobe has lost 2 Finals; one as a 2nd option (shot like a 1st option player) and another as the #1 player. In every other finals he had, he shot ATLEAST 45 % for the series. Lets also not forget his 55 point performance vs. Phoenix for his Finals high in a close and pivotal game. Kobe just had 40 points in Game 1 to reach his high for the Finals but many of those points came when they had a substantial lead vs. the Magic., To summarize, THERE IS NO REAL COMPARISON BETWEEN MICHAEL JORDAN AND KOBE BRYANT. The only similarities Both were good to great athletes (Jordan being MUCH better in speed and jumping ability and strength) Both were great scorers in their respective eras. Both Got to the line a lot. Both had a decent to great post up game (Jordan much better here as well). Both had good to great mid-range game (Jordan BEST EVER here) Both are good to great defenders (Jordan clearly better here; DPOY to his name). However, besides 3 point shooting, Jordan was CLEARLY BETTER at just about everything that Kobe does and accomplished MUCH MORE in the team aspect and individually because of it. Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time in the NBA, and Kobe Bryant will not change that. He is a great scorer who will be a Hall of Famer w/atleast 3 titles, but he will not be a Greatest of All Time Type of Player. Somebody else will have to try to take that title away from Jordan in the future. Kobe gave a good effort, but he simply couldn't match or even come close to Jordan's greatness on the court.
Raven, great post, don't even have to add anything else to your post (even though I can, since Jordan holds a laundry list of records that still stand in the NBA to this day, not to mention hitting the winning shot to win the National CHampionship in 1982 on a star studded team playing another star studded team), for anyone who knows basketball and has watched the NBA since the 80's, there is no doubt whatsoever that Jordan>>>>>>>Kobe (who is an excellent player in his own right). I will add one thing though, I am continually amused when I hear people say with a straight face mind you, that Kobe had a better "skill set" than Michael or that Kobe is the most "complete" offensive player ever, or he was a better "shooter" than Michael....do they actually back these dubious claims up with any empirical evidence (of which there is a great deal which refutes these idiotic statements)? Of course not. Fact: Jordan had a 44-48' vertical leap throughout his career, at 6'6, which is without a doubt larger and more explosive than that of Kobe Bryant. Fact: there was no one from 1984-1993 who was faster from baseline to baseline with a basketball in his hands than MJ, in fact when he played baseball for the white sox, they timed as being the fastest player in their club if not the entire farm system at getting down the line to first base (the exact time they clocked him at escapes at this time) and this was as a Right handed batter....I mention this because some truly ignorant NBA fans today have the temerity to state that Lebron James is faster than Jordan ever was which is pure baloney...Jordan was 6'6 180 pounds of pure sinewy muscle who absolutely flew down the court and there was no player in the entire NBA who could stop MJ on the break, he had thousands of facial dunks on helpless defenders on the break (irrespective of their size or strength). MJ's first step was lightning quick, and by lightning I mean lightning, you never saw MJ do any fancy dribbling because he could simply go by you at will (something Kobe does not even approach, guys like D-wade and Lebron are far more similar to MJ in this respect), in fact Phil Jackson once stated that Mj's first step may be the quickest he has ever seen in the 30+ years of his being involved in the NBA. MJ's hands were huge (Jerry Rice type hands) that could gobble up any pass (with only one hand needed at times- which you can look up in youtube), and which made it very difficult for defenders to bother him in the air or on the floor with his dribble. His strength for his size was unbelievable as well (as he was pure muscle, with a miniscule fat content) and he would routinely make incredible and-1 plays despite being wrapped up by countless defenders on his forays to the rim...CHarles Barkley has stated on numerous occasions that pound for pound MJ was the strongest guy in the league, and could absorb any kind of punishment (as evidenced by his series with Detroit and New York in particular). None of these physical tools that MJ had, are surpassed in any way whatsoever by Kobe Bryant...in fact the only player who comes close is Lebron. Now for a brief discussion of the overall arsenal of MJ, the very notion that there has ever been any guard with a better/more complete offensive game that MJ thus far is absurd beyond imagination: this is the same guy who avg'd 37 ppg before he even began to refine his tools as an offensive player...he was simply unstoppable from the very moment when he walked into the league with a 28.2 ppg avg and his mid-range game wasn't even in place yet. Not to mention the fact that the guy avg'd over 50% fg year in and year out with some unbelievable years where he was at close to 54% fg for an entire season: i.e. the guy hardly ever had an off-night, and when he did it never due to you as a defender, but rather the law of avg's simply catching him on a bad day. When Michael wanted to, as against the series against Portland in the finals- which was the only time he said that he really focused on his 3 point shooting in practice and during the games due to a rivalry with Clyde Drexler, he showed that he pretty much could do whatever he wanted on the floor if needed. They guy's midrange game was poetry in motion by the time the championship years rolled around, and even as a 40-year old with shot knees due to tendinitis, he could kill you with that smooth Jumper of his which was effortless and unguardable in his prime. Needless to say Kobe while having a great offensive arsenal in this era, probably the best of the last 8 years, is no Jordan in this respect either, although he far-outpaces Lebron in this category. Finally as a defender, those that even think Kobe and MJ are comparable as defenders truly suffer from willful ignorance or alzheimer's disease. Jordan put up some of the greatest season's defensively of any guard in any era as mentioned in Raven's post above. His combination of blocks, steals and rebounds as a guard were GREAT, he became a great defender virtaully from the very beginning of his NBA career, winning the NBA defensive player of the year and MVP in his 3rd full season (a feat only repeated once by Hakeem Olajuwon, no other player has ever accomplished this feat in the History of the NBA). And let me make this abundantly clear, MJ was a GREAT defender, he could shut you down whenever he wanted to and he regularly guarded the other team's best player until Pippen finally honed his game and started becoming the defender he was in 1991-1998, before that Pippen was a weak-minded dissapointment who folded in the clutch (and was nowhere near being even a good player in his first 3-4 seasons in the league) as evidenced by his invisible performances against the Detroit Pistons in the playoffs. Between 1991-96 Scottie became an equally great defender to MJ, but in the final two season of the Bulls dynasty, Pippen was beset by a host of injuries, the worst of which was his back ailments which kept him out of many games (especially in the playoffs and finals) in those final years and forced MJ to again shoulder the lion's share of the perimeter defending responsibilities even though he was 35-36 years old, and guess what the Bulls retained their suffocating defense even in the absence of a healthy Pippen who was very limited at times. Chuck Daly used to remark that watching MJ play D was picture perfect because his fundamentals were flawless: his stance was textbook and his lateral quickness was unrivaled at the guard position. And here is one fianl important point: Jordan earned his stripes as a defender throughout his career because he played D night in night out, and he never took a play or game off, i.e. he wasn't a great defender because he turned it up whenever/solely when there was a nationally televised game or it was a hyped matchup as you often see with Kobe at times. The guy played team defense and was a fearsome one on one defender at the same time. The reason I have wasted so much time, putting forth this longwinded post on MJ's skills and accomplishments, is because I have grown tired of the modern day NBA fans who make BS assertions when comparing players or eras, with very little evidence to back their statements. I feel the same way when people completely overlook a player of Olajuwon's caliber when talking about current big men, and the greatest big men of all time. Hakeem was unquestionably the most skilled and complete center the game has ever seen, and he could do more things at his size that any other player of any other era, on defense and offense.....
And people easily forget MJ actually provides the complete textbook like instruction materials to the guards playing nowadays. In his career he basically demonstrates how a guard can become dominant with finesse, with speed, with power, with tenacity, or with wit, from the paint or from the perimeter, taking over the game or relying on his teammates. Kobe, Wade or LBJ each picks up a part of MJ's game, but none of them learns his full package.
Great Post as well. Here is another interesting stat. Michael Jordan missed 64 games in 1986 (started only 7) due to a broken foot, he missed 65 games in 1995 due to playing Baseball, and he missed 22 games in 2001 from knee problems at age 38, and he didn't start in 7 of the games he did play in. He also didn't start 15 games in 2002-2003 season. Add up the games he missed: 151 games he did not play in (not counting 1994 where he didn't play a single game). He also didn't start in 22 games as a Wizard in the games he did play in. He didn't start in 11 games as a Bull after he returned from his foot injury. So lets add 75-82 games (average amount of games he played his 1st 9 yrs) to the 151 and add about 15 minutes per each game he didn't start. Imagine the type of #'s Jordan would've had with 233 games and 22 full games to play. Bascially he played less than 15 years worth of games. He actually played 14 and a quarter worth of games. Outside of those 3 years, he only missed a handful of games (7 I think). In total Jordan played 1,072 games and started 1,039 Kobe Bryant has already played in 948 games. That is a little misleading because he has only started in 800 and he came into the league at 18 years old. We'll use his 2nd year to really measure up since he was an All Star that year. But lets use 800 as a good comparitive #. In 1,039 games Jordan started, he accomplished everything that I mentioned in my previous post. Kobe has only 339 less games in 12 seasons in the NBA as a star and is nowhere close to where Jordan is as far as accomplishments. This stat is simply amazing to me. Jordan would've easily gotten to 40,000 points in my opinion if he didn't take 94 and most of 95 off and he came back as a Wizard. Kareem needed 20 seasons to get 38,000 points and Malone needed 19 to get 36,000 points. Jordan probably would've gotten close to 2,000 more than Kareem in 3 less seasons!!
I did forget to mention how the lockout took away a maximum of 30 games away from Kobe, so he does get some slack, but even then 30 games vs. 151-233 potential games missed by Jordan isn't enough to make up the difference in accomplishments
With all that being said, you also can't discount the break MJ's body got from the 1.5 yr hiatus. That's significant for an older player.
Well he did play baseball in the 1.5 year "break" he had. Then during the 94-95 season he was frequently practicing with the Bulls tream throughout the season. I know its not the same wear and tear as an NBA season, but he was playing sports in that "break". Also he was pretty durable before his 1st retirement, but he didn't even miss one game from age 32 to 35, all 3 years with titles. He led the league in total minutes played in a season 3 times in his career and led the league in minutes per game twice, where Kobe hasn't done neither once. Lets also not forget that for his first 5 years of his career Jordan had to do EVERYTHING for the Bulls just for them to have a chance for them to win. You thought Lebron was amazing in the playoffs...Jordan played that way for 2 whole seasons and the playoffs in 86-87 and 87-88. Scottie Pippen didn't really develop until 89-90 season, so until then Jordan's best supporting players was Oakley, Cartwright, and Paxson. Kobe had the luxury of playing on a team stacked with talent when he came in. Shaq, Van Exel, Eddie Jones, Elden Cambell, Robert Horry, and Derek Fisher. He didn't have the pressure of performing at his best EVERY night in order for his team to have a chance to win. I'm sure that the 1.5 year retirement may have helped his longevity, but the fact that he could retire for 1.5 years and come back just nearly as dominant as he was before is amazing. Then to top that off, he retires for 3 years, and at the age of 38 he comes back and averages 19-20 ppg until he is 41 years old. Simply amazing if you ask me...
excellent point, by the way I mistakenly referred to Raven's post in my post above, but I meant to say the Blacknight's post, sorry for mixing that up. great research Blacknight. By the way people always talk about Lebron's passing, but people do not know (for the most part) how great of a passer Jordan was from an early age due to the fact that the triangle offense used by Phil Jackson from 1991 to 98, really precluded and one player getting a lot of assists, since the offense relied up quick passes and cuts from all five players, and continuous ball movement (to prevent any one player from dominating the ball, and keeping all 5 players in the game, so to speak). However in the one year when Jordan was placed at the PG position in 1989-90 he was a triple double machine, putting up incredible stats: he had a string of 6-7 straight triple doubles, and something like 10-11 in 15 games (for those interested they can look up the stats, i may be off in my recollection by a little bit), and the numbers he put up in the playoffs even in defeat, were monstrous. And these weren't just 20-10-10 numbers, he was putting up 40-14-16, 36-13-12 type games in the regular season and the playoffs, showing that he really could do it all on the court.
Forget the rings, the mvp awards, game winning shots, high scoring games... Just look at the chopped heads on his wall: Magic Johnson Larry Bird Clyde Drexler Charles Barkley John Stockton Karl Malone Reggie Miller Gary Payton Shawn Kemp Patrick Ewing These are all players Jordan faced in his day and destroyed them to the point of submission. Kobe has never imposed his will on a team or an opponent. In order for Kobe to be seriously considered in the same category as Jordan he needs to get the heads of LeBron, Wade etc... He had a shot last year of making the leap with Garnett, Allen and Pierce ready for the slaughter but we saw what happened. Sorry but Jordan in his prime would take that same Celtics team to school. In order to be Ali you have to takedown Frazier.
I agree with most of the names on that list, but...you have to take Larry Bird off, because the Celtics never lost the Bulls in the playoffs. You could replace Larry Bird with one of the following Chris Webber, Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, and even Shaquille O'Neal. Still, I'll agree Kobe's is not quite as impressive.
