TMac's was shooting .394 and .250 in the 1st jazz series. That's the reason we lost. I don't blame him for the 2nd jazz series loss but he didn't shoot well either (.425/.250). The numbers were well below his regular season average. Kobe on the other hand, was shooting these numbers without Shaq in playoff. All were better than his regular season. 0.497 0.400 0.462 0.357 0.479 0.302 OP was putting up numbers to compare points in playoff and neglect the shooting %. With TMac's number, no one respected his jumpers and he could hardly command double team. TMac called for screen every time he's on the top, he could hardly blow past the defender going 1 on1. That's the reason the roles couldn't get open. I've got fed of excuses. Just tell me why Kobe shot better in playoff while TM shot worse? And where's TM's "it's on me" when the series was on the line 2 years ago? He didn't even drive once in 4th until garbage time.
kobe's a better offensive player so he shot better. is anybody denying that? tracy makes up for it with his rebounds and assists. tracy averaged 7.5 assists in that series with our role players shooting 30%. NOW JUST IMAGINE if they made 40%, tracy would have had 10+ assists to go with his 25 points. yes tracy didn't shoot well overall in that series (just like lebron did his past 2 playoffs). but like all superstars, they compensated with other dominating stats. tracy did that with his passing. he still controlled that series. the guy had 29 and 13 in game 7. i remembered ESPN had a stat that says tracy was responsible for EVERY BASKET EXCEPT FOR 7. that's just basically doing your share + 2-3 others. and what? role players couldn't get open? what series are you talking about? rafer/head/battier ALWAYS get open shots. guess you have to watch that series again. and they keep BRICKING. tracy shot 42% that year. so 39.5% isn't that way off. yao shot 51% that year. he shot 43%. but that's fine too. let's go to the role players. rafer shot 32%, down from 39%. head shot like 7%, down from 44%. battier shot 35%, down from 43%. are you serious?
I will admit I was very disappointed in his 4th quarter performances last year in the playoffs (games 1 and 2 I think it was). You gotta do better. But let's not pretend that Kobe is not a jumpshooter as well. If I recall correctly someone put up some stats and there was mere percentage points of difference between TMac and Kobe when it comes to how many of their shots are jumpshots, drives, etc. Look no one here that is sane will say Kobe is not a better player than Tracy. No way. All we are saying is, by themselves, and somewhat similiar situations, neither accomplished much of anything. That as great as each is or is not, they need help. Kobe cried trade and was dissing everyone around him...are so quick to forget that? Kobe said he can't do it alone. Tracy is saying the same. Kobe got the help and they actually did their jobs. Tracy has capable people around him, but they are either hurt when the playoffs come or they don't show up. There's so many variables, that's pretty obvious, but it is not a stretch to say that neither of them could get it done by themselves. That's all I'm saying.
Yes. This has been beaten to death so I should probably let it die but (1) Kobe is a better offensive player than T-Mac so it stands to reason he'd have better percentages than him and (2) T-Mac faced hard double teams from the Jazz all series while Kobe was matched up with a monster defensive team like the Suns... EDIT: Icehouse's post is bomb. Everyone should read it. Then people with selective memory can argue. Ohh i'm so smart, leader's shouldn't quit. They have fire and determination and killer instinct and don't let 3-1 leads drop. Kobe quit. Kobe let a 3-1 lead drop. Then he threw his teammates under the bus and asked for a trade, then didn't, then did again. That's much more drama than T-Mac asking to sit for a little bit through a lighter schedule. Ohhh T-Mac gets paid most he should be the best and lead us to victory T-Mac was the best and Paul Pierce was the Finals MVP. Not KG. Meaning he stepped up the most. KG just rode his jock the whole way. Just have our role players play welll for once. Just have Yao playing well (or playing) for once. If we still get bounced out of the first round, THEN I will give up on T-Mac. That has never happened and I don't think it ever will.
Yao averaged 25 ppg (shooting 44% from the field) that series along with 10 rpg. You're being overly critical of him. We werent talking about formulas for success. We were talking about the strengths of the Rockets team in 06-07 to the Lakers teams that lost to the Suns. Specifically, we were talking about starters. Tmac had 2 starter-caliber players. Kobe had 0. And Battier is a Bowen-type player with a better offensive game. For any other team, he'd be an upgrade over almost any non-all-star sf. Regardless of how you try to spin it, Battier is nowhere near the offensive liability you're making him out to be. Sprewell is sitting at home b/c he wanted more money than he was offered. And that proves my point....if a player is talented enough, there will be a roster spot for him. RBowen gets a chance b/c if a team needs a big, he's good enough to fill that need. But he doesnt have enough talent to keep his job when theres competition for it. Thats why he gets bounced around.
T-Mac shot like garbage. Yet he got a lot of boards and tons of assists (something like 7 a game IIRC). Again, he got a ton of assists even though the rest of the supporting cast shot like garbage. Yes, he could have done more. No one is denying that. But y'all still fail to address our main points. When did he have the better team? What...arguably one year? We can give y'all tons of examples of players losing when they didn't have enough help. You can't even find one example of where Kobe (the comparison dude in this thread) led a team anywhere when he didn't have help. He didn't suddenly get good or clutch last season. His team got an All-Star caliber PF and a stable PG for nothing. That's why the Lakers improved...that, and a strong bench coming into their own. IMO, if you put Kobe on this team you will have the same results. He hasn't shown me that he can win with less. He hasn't shown me that he responds well to adversity as the leader of his team, with all the pressure and attention focused on him. I have seen him quit twice in that scenario, once with little help (against Phoenix), and once with tons of help (against Boston). Yes, he is a great player...but our teams needed a great player that can win without much support. And the only 3 players that I have personally seen do that are Hakeem (title in 94), Duncan (title in 03) and LeBron (Finals in 07).
I don't disagree neither could get it done by themselves. But they yield very different results when they have some support. It's been more than 4 seasons and we have always been excited in offseason about the moves and talking no support after first round exit? How many deja vu do we need? 2 superstars should get over 1st round regardless, and that's just the bottom line.
If you put Kobe on 07 Rox, they'd be in WCF at least. Simple as that. Just checked how Kobe pounded Jazz last year, and compared to Tmac. Kobe's a better player, and the margin was good enough to put us over the top. After all, we were 5 points ahead at a time in 4th quarter at home in game 7.
04-05, yao wasn't a superstar. 05-06, both were injured -> no playoffs 06-07, yao just came back from injury which could explain his struggles in that series 07-08 yao didn't even play, 2 of the 5 starters are out now you know why? yes if you look back and just look at the results, you expect something. but even if we don't get into the role players, injuries are the reason.
that's circumstantial. kobe always played well in the playoffs. but it wasn't just him who pounded the jazz. let me give you some "stats." gasol - 19ppg, 8rpg, 56% shooting odom - 18ppg, 12rpg, 59% shooting fisher - 15ppg, 57% shooting, 66% 3pt even if you take out kobe, the team shot 51%, 40% from 3s. really? replace that with rafer shooting 32%, head 7%, battier 35%, yao shooting 43%. really now? i'm not saying it might not happen, but again, it's circumstantial. if he saw our players didn't shoot so well, he might force the issue. and the 2 times kobe forced the issue this year (shot over 25+ times), lakers lose.
Really? Hypotheticals now? OK. If you put Kobe on 07 Rox he'd quit, simple as that. What's to say he doesn't get fed up with the team's performance and quit like he did in Phoenix? He was up 3 to 1 he just had to win 1 game to get out of the first round!!! He only took like 3 shots in the second half of game 7. You're telling me the great Kobe Bryant can't pull more than 3 shots off against that mauling, legendary Phoenix Suns defense? That acclaimed star-stopping defense? That championship winning defense? Or are you going to back up his reason to give up? Is that something a superstar player, earning $20 million a year should do? I would think not. I hear that argument on T-Mac a lot. Why not apply it to Kobe? He quit. Maybe to prove a point. Maybe because he didn't like his teammates. Maybe he was fed up with the situation in LA. You face him with some adversity, and some lacking talent, and he quits on you. He quit. Simple as that.
Actually I'm not. Yao is a career 52% shooter. His primary benefit is being an efficient scorer. Dropping to 44% shooting is a big no-no, especially considering the people checking you are a short PF in Boozer, and a center that has never been known for his defense (Okur). And he got killed defensively. Yao did not have a good series against Utah. Since when is Odom not a starting caliber type of player? They made the Finals with him, right? I'm not spinning anything. Battier isn't better than the main SF for any team in our division (Peja, Howard, Bowen, Gay). We couldn't trade Battier for any of those players straight up right now. 4 of the teams in the Northwest division have better SF's (Outlaw, Melo, AK, Mike Miller). You may be able to argue for Battier over Outlaw. So do the Lakers (Odom), Warriors (S.Jackson) and Clippers (Al Thorton). That's almost every team in the Western Conference. And Battier is the offensive liability that I claim he is. He can't create his own offense. If someone isn't getting him a wide open shot then he probably isn't going to score.
Kobe quit when he got 23 points in first half and the team was still 15 points behind in a hostile environment. TMac quit when there's 5 min left and the game was dead even, at home. You are blind if you can't see the difference.
And you base this on what? I don't see how Kobe pounding the Jazz with a solid low post threat shooting above 50% and a team of shooters making most of their open shots is comparable to when we lost against Utah. Please make us understand how those are similar? I think t_mac1 provides clear examples of all the help Kobe had against Utah. Kobe had just enough help when they lost to Phoenix. Odom outplayed Yao on both ends. Why didn't they get to the WCF then?
i'm fine with your criticism of tracy, b/c hey he hasn't won. but to call the guy a quitter in that game 7 is just absurd. dude scored 9 points in that 4th quarter (sure only 4 in the last 5 minutes). in fact, he scored 16 of his 29 points in the 2nd half. again, it's a team game. you expect him to score EVERY point down the stretch? like i said, he scored/assisted on every basket EXCEPT FOR 7. that's unheard of really. so like i said, he did his part + 2 or 3 other guys' jobs.
I see an example where T-Mac couldn't get it done. He failed....he didn't stop trying. If you want to say he quit in the Mavs series then you would be right...but that would be the same type of scenario as Kobe quitting in the 39 point rout in Game 6 last year. But thanks for letting us know that you feel Kobe quitting for the entire second half is acceptable because the Suns had a double digit lead. I wonder if LA would have another ring now if the Celtics took that approach after being down by 20+ in Game 4 of the Finals. I wonder if Barkley would have a title if Hakeem took that approach when we fell down 3-1 to the Suns with no homecourt. It's never acceptable to quit. And considering how we are discussing what Kobe would do when playing from behind the 8-ball like T-Mac, I don't think it helps your argument too much....
Just check how many crunch playoff performance Kobe had in his career and how many times he didn't show up when they really had a good chance down the stretch. And TMac didn't show up in the 4th quarter of game 7. TMac shot below 40% and it's because roles didn't bail him out? You know what, when Tmac was settling for bricks, no one would double him and the roles certainly won't want get enough open to shoot high %. I forgot to mention TMac rarely played defense either. If it's Vlad not Battier that's taking up the slack, Rox would have been raped by AK47.
First of all, T-Mac didn't quit. Not scoring, and not trying to score are two different things. You are blind if you can't see the difference. Oh and grabbing a rebound would have helped in that game for the Rockets. Second of all, you are backing Kobe's reason to quit? Just because he had a reason doesn't make it right. You are being paid $20 million! Even if they were down, they could have gone down fighting like so many ask from T-Mac around here. Are you saying it's OK for Kobe to quit just because his team is down and he doesn't like the situation? So there's no grudge against McGrady and Yao for hanging it up in game 7 of Dallas series? They were down big. They were in a hostile environment. Hostile environment? REALLY? I didn't know that NBA players were such little girls that had to be coddled. Hmm sounds like a critique of a certain player on our team... THEY ARE PAID TO IGNORE THAT **** AND PLAY. Hostile environment? If someone isn't throwing beer cans at you or something there's nothing hostile about it. Elimination game faced with adversity: Kobe quits. 3 shots. or 5. whatever. Elimination game faced with adversity: T-Mac drops 40. That's what he did in game 6 last season right? He was in a hostile environment. He didn't hang it up just because we weren't going to win that game. We weren't supposed to win that series in the first place without Yao. We lost Yao for the season T-Mac continues to lead this team to 22 straight wins. When we went down 0-2 in the playoffs, we went out there and stole 1. We won at home, and played hard on the road. We at least fought to the end.
