the title of the post is very misleading. nobody in this thread has said tracy > kobe and yet we all have people trying to say that happened. ultimately, can anyone still answer my question? can you name one single (JUST ONE) playoff game where tracy's team won a playoff game, and you can say that the it wasn't tracy who won us the game? really, if everything that's said is true, it's very easy to name ONE game. it's not a coincidence role players ALSO make their names in the playoffs. teams who win a series usually have a player who makes a name for themselves (which next year comes around, they usually show why they're better -> daniel gibson became a starter basically). i love our role players. i really do. but i still cannot name one game in the past 3 playoff series in the tmac-yao era where i say, "wow, that dude stepped up and won this game when tracy and/or yao was off." this year, i anticipate "that dude" will be ron artest (or brooks, or scola, or landry...). we're deeper. i expect many guys will step up. and that's why we'll get out of the first round. mark my words (unless one of our big 2 get injured).
It would be impossible to find a playoff game won by the Rockets where Tmac didn't play an integral role. But whats your point? Tmac is the highest paid player and in these past few years, the offense has been run through him. Knowing this, its a stupid question that you asked. People dont complain that Tmac disappears in the playoffs. They complain that he disappears in crunch time. You think Gibson became a starter b/c of his performance against the Pistons in the playoffs? I disagree. If you recall, he had a subpar performance against the Spurs. The reason he became a starter was b/c he matured as a player. When the cavs went to the finals, Gibson was a rookie. Its funny that you consider Artest to be a role player when he clearly isnt.
it doesn't matter if you're the highest paid player. did KG suddenly become a better crunch time player when he won the championship? no, he just has ray allen and paul pierce stepping up, who makes less money than him. does that make him a lesser player? what i meant by that question is usually great players depend on others to win them a game (or sometimes even 2 games) in a series where they struggled. their teammates "pick that player" up. lebron had a sub-par game 6 v. detroit 2 years ago but daniel gibson popped in 30 points for them to seal. that's the kind of performances i'm talking about. we haven't had any at all. this year, i think we're going to have that. i might see aaron brooks dropping 20 in a playoff game, or scola, or landry. artest hasn't been a role player so far? i haven't noticed. on offense, when he can't score (which has often been the case), he can't do much of any playmaking.
If someone post a thread like this in the generic NBA board: Title: Zach vs TD Zach 21pts/11rb TD 20pts/10rb WITHOUT saying anything else, what kind of response you would expect? You expect the fans would just say: we guess are not crazy, you still think TD >>> Zach, but you just wanted to post a useless thread using irrelevant data to compare TD and Zach. BTW those numbers are not accurrate 100%
Your argument on Smush is funny. Smush could get 10+ because every team doubled Kobe heavily and he could get all those wide open 3. From Fisher to Atkins to Smush to Fisher again, all these players can get 10+. Smush signed a 2 year 4M contract with Heat 'coz Heat thought he could play as well since they had Wade, it took no time to find out they're wrong and they'd just waive him for nothing. Odom had some good numbers against Marion, I can give you that. But what number doesn't tell you is YM is a big inside presence, Odom is not. YM alters a lot of shots, Odom doesn't. Lakers' defense is suddenly so much better with Bynum inside, while Bynum couldn't get the numbers Odom used to get. Every team needs a defense anchor. And you obviously didn't check the game, just the numbers.
oh really, rafer has to shoot 38% to get his 10+ from the doubles of yao and tracy. so you think it's that easy huh? how come rafer can't shoot 43-44% then? you don't think we would have won in 06-07 v. utah if rafer made 43-44% of his shots rather than 32%? that's a whopping 12% difference, considering he took the 3rd most shots on our team (10+). but yea, really not a big difference dude, odom DESTROYED marion on both ends. marion was a NON-FACTOR. the usual 19 and 10 u got from marion in the reg. season, was dwarfed by 10x basically. odom took his game to another level with 19 and 13 on 50% shooting. yes odom didn't give you defense like yao ming did, but he dominated his position in that series. and he dominated the BOARDS (don't you wish yao would have done that?). smush parker is a bonehead. phil jackson even admitted while he was in LA dude was a talented player, but with no brain. if he had any type of discipline, he would still be in the L. just b/c he got waived doesn't mean he didn't have talent (see marbury as a perfect example). there was talk in miami he wanted more shots, more minutes... that's the reason he got waived for nothing and went to the NBDL. again, the point of this thread is basically: when your role players don't step up, you don't win in the playoffs regardless of how well one player plays. if you just look at stats, kobe played about the same as he did last yr in the playoffs. but his teammates GOT BETTER. the bench got drastically BETTER. he had an inside presence who shoots 60% in the playoffs plus 3pt shooters shooting 38-40%. so does kobe really make his teammates that much better than tracy? i mean, i'm sure tracy/yao give rafer, luther, battier... WIDE OPEN shots just like kobe does. how come they can't make them at the same clip? how come nobody on our bench can come off and just go torrid on the opponent? but that will happen this year. and that's why we're going to advance. tracy and yao will do their thing, but artest, scola, landry, brooks... will also have their share of "great" games that will elevate this team.
the difference is zach is not a playmaker where you can give him the ball and he'll make plays (he's simply a scorer). duncan can actually be a general on offense. the similarity with tracy and kobe is that they both controls most of their team's offense in terms of creating/making plays. ultimately, outside of kobe's dominant scoring, tracy actually makes/gives his teammates better shots (JVG says he's arguably the best playmaker in the game). but how come his role players have never performed at a high level in the playoffs even when he gives them better shots? look for all the bashing tracy and yao got (tracy for not stepping up late in the 4th, yao for not getting the rebounds), that 06-07 series should not have gone to 7 games if our role players made their shots. we should have won at least 1 game on the road (b/t games 3/4) if SOMEONE else was hot besides tracy and yao. JUST ONE. but that guy never appeared. if tracy and yao both put up 30+ points plus in this year's playoffs and nobody shows up, same result -> first round exit. but if both put up 20+, but artest puts up 15+, bench puts up 30 pts consistently -> advance
I wonder why this argument is still going. What this guy is saying is hardly a stretch. Comparing Tracy's playoff performances and Kobe's when each had comparable teams, isn't that much of a stretch. Neither could do much b/c they simply could not do it alone. Kobe has yet to prove he can, just like Tracy hasn't. Once Tracy's help actually performs for him anywhere to the level Kobe's successful teams do, then we can have this discussion again.
I agree look at his game last night 21pts, 10rbd?, 7ast, 4blks, guys I think he is still the best PF in the game today.
exactly. the 7 assists (should have been more) were the reason that offense was ran so smoothly (but also helps that others make shots). when tracy is healthy, he runs our offense extremely well. we don't get more points b/c our shooters aren't very consistent at the 3pt line. there are games tracy only scores 16-17 pts, but he'll put up 7-8 dimes that will still put his imprint on the game offensively. zach randolph scores 12-13 pts, and you don't even know he's on the court most of hte time.
Just promise me one thing. When we get out of the first round this year, promise me that you will give ALL teh praise to TMac no matter how good he was in the series. Because quite obviously it doesn't matter who's on your team. Your biggest star should just get all the credit.
b/c once they see tmac v. kobe, they stop reading and say, kobe > tmac, which is obviously not the point of this thread. the point is kobe played THE SAME WAY he did in 05-06/06-07 series v. the suns as he did last yr. 28-30 pts, 48-49% shooting, 5rpg, 5apg. but 2 times he lost, last yr he advanced. what's the difference? ROLE PLAYERS' PLAY.
This is gonna be a long one as I try to respond to multiple posts: Um, did you see T-Mac in Orlando with his crap teams? He was in the same situation, doing the same thing (go look at his playoff numbers). You have a very selective memory. T-Mac drug crap in Orlando to the playoff's 3 times, and also almost won a series like Kobe. T-Mac drug this team minus Yao to the playoffs twice. Yet somehow you seem to remember the one season with 19 straight losses. Interetsing.... No, the Rockets weren't favored to win. We had the same record as Utah but had HC because of a tiebreaker. Most expected us to lose that series. Again, please provide some support showing we were favored by the majority or stop posting this garbage. Yeah. Kobe won his fair share....when he was on a team with top 5 surrounding talent. I have asked you numerous times to point on when Kobe has won when he hasn't been surrounded by a top team. When Shaq was in LA, the Lakers had a losing record in the games that he missed. When Bynum went down last year, the Lakers were winning at a .500 clip until they stole Gasol and got him another big. Showing us how Kobe won on great teams does nothing in a debate about him winning in T-Mac's situations (i.e. on less talented teams than the ones he faced in the postseason). It's not that complex to understand. Every time Kobe has been in T-Mac's situation, he has had the same results. A lotto trip and two 1st round exits, while blowing a 3-1 lead in one of them. And I like the way you claim T-Mac is a choker, but refuse to respond to how all those examples I noted wasn't choking.... How star caliber were they in the Jazz series? Yao played worse that series than Odom played in both of those series against the Suns. People can claim "he had Yao" all they want. But when Yao is playing worse than Lamar Odom, then what does it matter that you have him? Using that logic, you might as well say they had a good shooter in Luther Head, even though he shoots like 30% once the playoffs roll around. And Chuck Hayes wasn't starter caliber either. It's no wonder two rookies sent him to the bench last season. Not to mention Battier is starting caliber because of his defense. But he can't score. So that's 3 offensive liabilities surrounding two very good players (one of whom is coming off an injury and playing like crap). Since when is that a formula for success? He didn't play the previous year, when Kobe blew a 3-1 lead to a team with Nash and a bunch of shooters. That isn't true either. It takes talent and the right attitude. Why do you think Sprewell is sitting at home? Why does Ryan Bowen keep getting a chance? One has a bad tude and one doesn't. Borderline guys with tude don't stick around. Again I ask, when has Kobe stepped up when he hasn't had a team with top 5 talent on it? His answer to adversity was quitting, and he's the best guard in basketball. You need help to win. So I guess all those years Hakeem was surrounded by dudes like Buck Johnson...and putting up monster numbers...he wasn't stepping up? Kobe was only stepping up when his teammates were good?? You aren't answering his question. He asked you to name instances where his teammates played big. You are going back to when he couldn't get it done...in times where we say he didn't have enough help. We can all play that game. Kobe had 3 chances to put away the Suns. He blew a 3-1 lead (i.e. he stole homecourt and gave it back). He quit on them in Game 7. He blew a 20 point lead at home last year. He got spanked by a record 39 points in the Final game. He has played poorly in the majority of his Finals appeareances. I guess we can't blame his supporting cast for any of that either, right? And again, that isn't true. T-Mac has had two good players since he has been a Rocket. And when I say two players, I mean ones that could start on multiple teams in the league. Yao and Battier. That's it. Wesley, Alston (he can't shoot), Sura, Jackson, M.James, broke down Howard, Head, Hayes (who started against Utah), Bowen (who started against Dallas), etc...they are all garbage. He has had Yao and Battier...that's it. Battier has never had a solid playoff series, period. Please show me where he has played good in the playoffs, for any team. Yao was less productive against Utah than Odom was against Phoenix in both years that LA lost to them. Forget Kobe..eliminate him from the discussion. Show us the times where the underdog team won in the 1st round. It doesn't happen that often. You can argue that T-Mac has the better team ONCE. And even then (first series against Utah), Yao played like crap and the supporting cast was weak (again, one game where only 4 dudes scored). Could Battier alone land us Mike Miller? Josh Howard? Josh Smith? AK-47? Bowen? Odom? Peja? Gay (now)? Durant? Artest if a team wasn't trying to dump him? Granger? The athletic kid in Portland we were rumored to trade for on draft day? Etc? Bowen, AK, Peja, Odom, Howard....those are the SF's of the teams we are competing with to get out of the West. No, Battier isn't better than any of them. Battier is a good role player. He defends very well. He still wouldn't start for quite a few teams because he can't score. No, Odom doesn't play as well as the #2 option. He is great as a #3 option. And last I checked, LA made the Finals with Odom starting. He only rides the pine because they got their 7 footer back. Where was Kobe's killer instinct when he wasn't on a team with top 5 talent? Where was it when he was up 3-1 on Phoenix and decided to quit in Game 7? So Kobe gave up against Detroit, Phoenix and Boston?? I'm citing numbers for an entire series. Odom was more productive than Yao in both of those Suns series, on both sides of the court. It's obvious from looking at the numbers or the games (pick one). YAO WAS OUTPLAYED BY OKUR!! To sum all this up, Kobe >> T-Mac. It’s not even close. But no man wins alone. T-Mac is not a choker, he has just never had enough help. No, that doesn’t mean he has always played perfect in the postseason, but he isn’t a choker. Kobe wasn’t a choker post Shaq, before last season. He just didn’t have a lot of help. KG wasn’t a choker post last season…he just didn’t have a lot of help. Hakeem wasn’t a choker when Buck Johnson was his SF. Etc….
Hmm, obviously you didn't "check the games" my friend, because I don't see how anyone that watched the Hou-Utah series could argue that Yao was an inside presence that series. Was he an inside presence offensively? He shot like garbage and the Jazz were able to contain him with Okur. I'm not as mad at Yao because he was coming off an injury, but he still didn't perform. Was he a inside presence on the boards? Odom grabbed more boards than he did. We actually lost the series because we gave up 3 offensive boards in a row in Game 7. Was he an inside presence defensively? Well Okur was camped on the 3 point line where he couldn't guard him, and Boozer torched him at will (too quick for Yao to handle). Maybe you should take your own advice.....
yes you can nitpick yao's or tracy's deficiencies in that series, but at the end of the day, both put up 50 ppg, 18rpg, 8apg. they did their part. just like kobe and lamar did their part in those suns series (pre-gasol). their teammates just disappeared. who would have thunk head would have choked like he did? he was supposed to be a "VERY BIG" part of the bench and was one of our clutch players? who would have thought rafer would shoot worse and shot 32%? who would have thought battier was a liability defensively and can't make shots to save his life (when that was the reason we picked him up)? 3 of our main guys literally STUNK IT UP. i mean, they had a standard to fulfill -> be a role player and make your open shots. they couldn't even do that. had they just play to their reg. season's performance, we would have won. but no, they played 5x worse.
