Anybody who says that it's not McGrady's fault at all is a fool, but saying it is entirely his fault is equally stupid. McGrady has only been favored to win in one of those postseasons. He didn't play great that year, but neither did Yao or anyone else on that team. Sure, you can put blame on McGrady for each of those playoff losses, but when doing so you have to mention everyone else not performing too. Otherwise, you're just as stupid as those people you're mocking. Also, and this isn't really to tinman, look at Kobe's Lakers before Bynum became Bynum and before Kwame Brown turned into Pao Gasol. (sarcasm)They were REAL good (/sarcasm) How easily people forget how he was lambasted for being a ball hog and then hailed as MVP once he's given help. His play style never changed, just his teammates.
Come on now dude...his logic is simple. When your teammates are Shaq, or Gasol and Odom with a deep bench, then it's not choking. It's only choking when you have teammates like Chuck Hayes or Rafer Alston. These silly Laker lovers love to say "T-Mac had Yao", even though Kobe was getting knocked out of the 1st round when Odom was putting up better numbers than Yao. Using that logic, I guess Kobe really failed in 04 because he had GP and Karl Malone...even though they were shells of their former selves (similar to how Yao was against Utah, coming off an injury and getting done up by "defensive specialist" Okur). Can someone tell me how having a team with 3 other HOF players on it, being heavily favored to mop a starless Pistons team, then losing the series 4-1 while you shoot sub 40% (while taking more shots than anyone else) isn't choking? Can someone tell me how being up 3-1 in a series, and quitting on your team in Game 7 by refusing to shoot isn't choking. Or just blowing a 3-1 lead in general? Can someone tell me how having a stacked team and getting to the Finals, to lose a 20 point lead in a pivotal Game 4 at home then losing the elimination game by a record 39 points while shooting 7-22 isn't choking...especially when you are shooting in the low 40's for that series. Please make me understand....... Kobe is great. He is better than T-Mac and it's not even close. But T-Mac has never had a stacked team. Kobe has never taken a team that wasn't stacked anywhere. It would be no different if he was here. Either give me more talent, or someone that has proven they can lead a less talented team past one with better talent (i.e. Duncan in 03 or Hakeem in 94).
WTF is this? Kobe had to get 40+ points to have a chance to win when his team had Kwame, Smush, Luke in starting lineup. When TMac was in similar situation and he had some injury? They strung 19 straight losses. Rox weren't as bad as that. Plus, the 1st Jazz series, Rox weren't favored to win? Then why do you fight for homecourt advantage? They certainly were heavily favored 2 years ago when DW and Boozer weren't even all stars. There's no point to play denial.
Did anyone see the crap that tmac led to the playoffs in Orlando!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh yeah you don't see them because they are not in the freakin league anymore
Kobe didn't win all series they could win. But he did get fair share of wins. TMac didn't win any series they could win. Zero, none. Can someone name one player in the league had bigger fame and less success?
Well, look where the old Lakers players are now. Kwame is a journeyman who is only in the league for defensive purposes and only playing about 15 mpg. Lamar now comes off the bench. Luke Walton is permanently stuck on the bench. And is Smush Parker even in the league anymore? In other words, the Lakers' starters (except for Kobe) pre-Gasol weren't NBA caliber starters.
Horry is retired. You are going to eat crow. T - Mac: <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9fWvub_WBho&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9fWvub_WBho&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
And let's not forget that those Suns teams were a heck of a lot better than the Jazz teams that have been bouncing us.
where's david wesley? where's ryan bowen? where's scott padgett? where's juwan howard? where's mike james? where's bonzi? would rafer start on any other team? and that suns team was NOT better than the jazz. they didn't have AMARE that year my friend. they simply had nash and a bunch of shooters. and let me remind you, smush parker in 05-06 put up 12 ppg on 45% shooting. the reason he's out of the league is b/c he's a stupid fool who thinks he can make more money and believes he should play huge minutes. he's a good talent, just a bonehead. kobe had lamar odom. the ONLY series tracy had an advantage was in 06-07 when both him and yao played. that's the series if anyone should put, it's on him. but even then, how can you forget game 4 where only 4 ROCKETS SCORED? that's futility at its finest. you put brian cook and smush parker in that game and they would have scored for us.
7 damn pages and not one single person said T-mac >>>> Kobe, but yet the same people are b****ing like someone did say it.
Rafer isnt starter-caliber. But Yao and Battier definitely are. Anyways, your point about the Rockets bench players is irrelevant. Dont forget the the Lakers' bench was inferior to its starters as well. Amare played in 2006-2007 when the Suns beat the Lakers. If a player is good enough, he'll find a place on a roster. Smush wasnt good enough. Lamar Odom and Kobe do not play well together. Its just like why the Lebron-Larry Hughes experiment failed. All those players need the ball to be effective.
isn't that funny? nobody in this world would even entertain the notion right now. all some who defend tracy simply are saying he does step up his game in the playoffs. he's the only one who elevates his game from what he usually does in the playoffs. yao sometimes does too. but NOBODY else does. you cannot win 1 or 2 on 5 in a 7 game series. we need at least 4 guys to bring their A games if we want to advance. tracy played superhuman v. dallas AND STILL LOST. tracy played superhuman in the playoffs before AND STILL LOST. we need a guy like dfish who can make clutch jumpers when they do get them. we need a guy like horry who can do that. in 06-07, we thought that guy was luther head b/c he was VERY clutch for us in the reg. season. but he disappeared. this year, we expect it to be ron. but i expect around 5-6 guys to step up b/c our team is deep. like i said many times, if we do well in the playoffs this year, it's not gonna be due to tracy. we all know what tracy is going to do: 25+ppg, 7+rpg, 6+apg. that's a given. it's gonna be up to yao, scola, landry, artest...
Agreed with everything posted. You know how it is on this board. If you give T-mac any type of props a lot of these guys will spin it in another direction.
you prove my point. when the lakers' bench were irrelevant, they were 1st-round and out. just like our bench had been until this year. battier is starter caliber depending on what team. he can't start on most teams nowadays (say atlanta, boston, lakers, golden state...) i think amare missed one series and they still lost (remember the year nash took that team when amare was out; that was the series they blew the lakers blew a 3-1 lead) isiah rider? remember him. he was a good player. he was a bonehead. marbury? know him. he is a good player. he's just a bonehead. in 3 years with the lakers, smush parker put up 12 pts on 44-45% shooting (that's MUCH better than rafer). but he thinks he deserves more minutes and big money and the fame got into his head. lamar odom doesn't play well with kobe? umm.. let's check his playoff stats. 05-06 19.1ppg, 13rpg, 50% shooting 06-07 19.4ppg, 13rpg, 49% shooting 07-08 15ppg, 10rpg, on 48% shooting (that's b/c he took less shots). the point of this thread wasn't to say tmac > kobe b/c it's not even remotely believable. the point is tracy does step up. he does his part in the playoffs for the most part. sure you can ALWAYS criticize a player's game when he hasn't won, but for the most part, he has done his job. 28ppg, 7rpg, 6apg, 2spg, 1bpg. that's doing your job. like i said, tell me ANOTHER INSTANCE IN THE HISTORY OF THE PLAYOFFS where 4 players scored in a professional NBA playoff game? again, that game exemplifies the role players' futility.
"Stepping up" is about a heck of a lot more than putting up big numbers. It's about sucking it up and refusing to lose. Making the defensive stop. Hustling for loose balls. Attacking the rim... Doing whatever it takes to win. Tracy's answer to adversity is padding his stats through three quarters and hoping the long ball falls. There's a reason he's 0-7 and it's not because his teammates were all scrubs.
so antisonic, can you tell me one teammate of his that stepped up EVER and win ONE playoff game for him? just name one. with kobe, i don't even need to name shaq. dfish had huge games in the playoffs of 20+ before. robert horry always makes clutch shots. pau gasol shot 60% last yr. lamar shot 48% last yr. vujacic was huge. with the celtics last yr. kg disappeared in the playoffs, pierce and allen stepped up, along with powe. in the first 2 rounds, pierce and allen disappeared and it was kg and rondo. it's a simple question antisonic, can you tell me ONE SINGLE PLAYOFF GAME in tracy's career where you can say one of his teammate won ONE GAME? just name me ONE INSTANCE.
He had three chances to put away the Pistons. He had two shots to put away Dallas. He's blown homecourt against Utah twice. You can't blame his supporting casts for HIS missed opportunities.
usually role players can step up and win those games too for your superstars. remember daniel gibson's 30+ pt game in game 6 to beat detroit while lebron was shooting 7-24? remember even last yr in game 3 v. denver, kobe went scoreless b/t the 2nd and 3rd quarter and was a non-factor but his team got a 20 pt lead on the road? remember dfish 6 3s in game 5 to put away philly in the finals? like i said, it's very easy to nitpick and go back and say tracy coulda, shoulda... and yes, you can make that argument. but every team that you look back who won ONE series, or TWO series, or whatever. yes the superstars get the credit for helping them win. but you can ALWAYS pick out 1-2 other players that you can say, "WOW, without them, we wouldn't win." but if you answer try to answer my original question, you can't. tracy cannot win every game. remember when we went up 2-0 both games. in 04-05 v. dallas, tracy puts up 28+ in games 3 and 4, we lost. he needed yao to step up in those games. he didn't. in 06-07 v. utah, tracy struggled on the road. his teammates needed to pick him up in those games. they didn't. in 07-08, in the first 2 games, tracy did everything in the first 3 quarters, he needed someone to pick him up in the 4th. look, no great player can dominate 4 quarters of every game for EVERY series. they will struggle. tracy has struggled in a few games (dominate more than his share, but still struggle). he needs help. and this is the year he gets it. if we go up 2-0 this time, i'm sure ron or brooks or scola or landry will step up and get 1 out of 2 road wins. so if we win a series, it's not gonna be entirely tracy (or yao), but the role players. like i said, stars get the credit (or usually all of it), but once you look back at the games, it's the role players also. perfect example: last year's 22 game winning streak. who got most of the credit? tracy. he got MVP considerations in the final ballot. but was it all him that made it possible? NO. it was deke's rebounding and defense; it was scola's great intensity, it was rafer and luther being hot...
Actually, I refuted your point. Read it again. I talked about the terrible starters the Lakers had. You talked about the terrible bench that the Rockets had. What you're forgetting is that the Lakers' bench is worse than its starters. The point is, people try to use "kobe hasnt gone anywhere w/o shaq" to defend mcgrady's lack of playoff success. But that logic is flawed b/c Tmac has had MUCH better teams than kobe had post-shaq. How many non all-star small fowards can you name that are better than Battier? The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Prince. Yes, i'm well aware that amare missed one series. He also played one series. If you look back, you'll see that I pointed it out to you. i remember rider. he became a journeyman with a drug problem before he was washed up. if marbury could be signed for the vet's minimum, there'd be a ton of interest in him despite the fact that he's a bonehead. So you're using ppg and fg% to define a player? Smush Parker made terrible decisions. If he thought he deserved big money, he wouldnt have signed that small contract with miami. Smush was bad enough that he was bounced around to the tune of 6 teams in 7 years. Teams thought he could play, but he proved them wrong. Once again, you cant quantify everything with stats. And no, Odom doesnt play well w/ Kobe. Look how successful the Lakers are with Odom coming off the bench. Lakersground ran a poll asking if they should trade Odom for Tmac. And the majority wanted to stay w/ odom as opposed to getting tmac. Thats how effective odom has proven himself to be when coming off the bench. Yes, he puts up good numbers, but his killer instinct is almost non-existent. And whether or not he does is job is based on your opinion of his job. I think that a $20mm player's job is to close out games with a killer instinct. Play aggressive, attack the basket, and hope for the best. Settling for long jumpers is the same as giving up. I'm not denying that the Rockets had weak role players. They did. But the Lakers had worse. Its illogical for you to try to refute my argument by citing stats from 1 game.
