Kobe can barely dunk anymore. All he's got left is his mid-range game and his 3pt game... that's IT. With the occasional drive...
I think you guys have confused injury with decline. If Kobe's still playing like this in December, then yeah, he's declined. But the man just came off of averaging 29 points, 6 rbds and 6 assists in the Playoffs. That's some ungodly stats. If that's a decline, bring Kobe to the Rockets for Chase!!!
Obviously if he puts his will into it, he'll still average good numbers. But if you actually watch him play, he's lost his first step, and most of his athleticism. Game 7 of the Finals was tantamount to how far he has fallen. It's not a noticable decline a la Tmac or Allen Iverson; but it's there...
I agree Kobe has lost much of his athleticism but I think his skill level has greatly increased. If you mean lost a step as in breaking down his man and dunking in the lane...absolutely agree. If you mean lost a step in terms of he is declining as a player, I disagree. Game 7 of the Finals was about Defense. The Celtics are the best defensive team in the league. If I recall correctly, that was the best defensive Finals we've seen in a decade. And I remember hearing that Michael Jordan had a poor shooting Finals game 7 too, but he was nowhere near decline either.
kobe had a bad first round, and a mediocre finals. he is declining. he's 32 with injuries, it's expected. but he has a lot of offensive and defensive help so the lakers can tolerate the decline as long as he can bring it up a notch here and there.
No one (except maybe the OP) is judging Kobe from a preseason game. Preseason means nothing. I'm judging him from last season, where he was noticeably worse than in previous years, something backed up by the numbers. There is no reason to expect this trend to reverse suddenly now that he's in his 30s; rather, expect them to drop even more as the mileage and injuries take their toll. This dropoff happens with almost every player, but particularly those who rely on isolation for a bulk of their scoring. It will happen with Wade & Lebron too... but not for a few more years, when they are Kobe's age.
1) MJ never played a game 7 in the Finals. You are probably thinking of game 6 in 1996, when he did have a bad performance (although it wouldn't crack Kobe's top 10 poor Finals games LOL). And you are also wrong that MJ was "nowhere near" decline then. He was still a great player, but he was not the same as he was in his 20s, when he was unstoppable. Much like Kobe, age had taken its toll. However, a 33 year-old MJ (in 1996) still didn't have the mileage that 32 year-old Kobe does now. 2) There's nothing Kobe does better now than he did five years ago. His game is predicated on athleticism, not as much as Lebron or Wade, but still way more than the average player. This is pretty much the same as MJ in his later years. People love to talk about how these guys developed an arsenal of moves so they could play late, but a layup > fadeaway no matter how smart you are.
Kobe averaged 29 points, 6 rebounds, 6 assists in the Playoffs. Those are crazy good numbers and on par with his previous seasons.
I stand corrected on the Game 7 vs Game 6. I don't know I just heard it somewhere. We are talking about last year's game 7 for Kobe and Jordan's Game 6. A 1996 "declining" Jordan was still the best player in the NBA. I disagree. Older Jordan and older Kobe are better than their younger counterparts. They may not have been exciting high flyers but their knowledge, skill and experience increased with age. And that same experience, increased skill and knowledge is winning them championships. Kobe's 29 points, 6 assists and 6 rebounds last year was one of his greatest Playoff runs ever.
Agreed, but he wasn't as good as he was in previous years. Hence, "declining". 1988 Jordan was much, much better than 1996 Jordan. That would be a nice story, but it isn't true. Jordan was at his best in his late 20s (same as Kobe, same as pretty much every player outside of Steve Nash). However, his teammates weren't good until a few years later. Much like Kobe in 2005 and Lebron his whole career up until now, Jordan had **** for teammates until Pippen developed into a good player and he got later help with Grant, etc. Kobe is winning now because he is very good but he also has fantastic teammates. Heck, Gasol led the Lakers in win-shares last year in both the regular season and playoffs. And he'll do it again this year by an even wider margin. Why? He's in his prime and Kobe isn't. Yes, he had a good playoffs accentuated by two phenomenal middle rounds. He was horrible in the Finals and not deserving of the MVP.
thing was he was inconsistent. he was superstar-like in the middle 2 series, and up and down in the first and last series. utah and suns didn't emphasize defense either. thunder and celtics did and he struggled for the most part.
I don't think we'll ever agree upon this point, no sense in arguing it. Win shares is a flawed statistic. Nene led the Nuggets in Win Shares last year. Kobe averaged 29 points, 8 rebounds and 4 assists in the Finals...that is pretty awesome in my book.
Regarding stats, you are correct that any given stat, such as win-shares, is not the end-all. But the point is, Kobe's numbers are down by EVERY advanced statistical measure. And more than that, you can see it when watching the game. He used to command doubles against every team, but now athletic players can take him straight-up (and hence why he struggles against such teams). I am not sure why this is so hard to believe, considering that he's played more minutes than almost anyone in NBA history and is entering the age where swingmen traditionally have dramatic dropoffs.
You could say that about any player really during the Playoffs. For example, a guy like Pau Gasol who is in his prime, was inconsistent in the Playoffs too. I think Amare even dropped 40 points on him or something like that too if I remember correctly. Amare, in his prime, was also inconsistent..dropping 40 and getting worked by the likes of Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom. Just defenses adjusting, off games, etc. Not a mark of decline, just being human.
I'll certainly believe it when I see it. But his 29, 6 and 6 in last year's Playoffs is a vast improvement over his younger years. There is no statistical evidence that says he's declining. You can watch and see he no longer dunks that much, absolutely true. But you can also see his mid-range and post game is vastly improved. When he stops dropping video game numbers, then I will agree he's declining.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html Last year Kobe's numbers dropped in every single category except for AST% and STL%, which stayed the same, and TOV%, which went up (which is bad, since it means he turned the ball over more). That is the definition of statistical evidence that shows he is declining. He has also been on the downswing for a few years. Outside of the first month of the season last year, he has rarely gone into the post (I suspect because it is more physical there and injuries are becoming a concern). His mid range game has not improved at all. If anything, his long range game has improved since his early years but it still isn't significant.
Last year was statistical evidence of a broken finger. Overall the decline in numbers is statistical evidence of better teammates as you pointed out. Last year he was leading the MVP race with better numbers than ever. I think he broke his finger in December and his numbers started declining. When you look at Kobe's post-season numbers, post-broken finger and knee problems, he put up one of his best post-seasons ever. With Kobe's injuries last year, it's way too quick to say he's declining. Those were injuries, not decline. This is why I say many have confused injury with decline. Too much conflicting evidence.
