Kobe Lookin to Pass Hakeem on All Time Scoring List Tonight

Had Hakeem gotten clyde in 1985 instead of 1995 pretty sure he would have had more than 1 ring with him.


I understand your point I think Kobe had the luxury of growing into a system where he wasnt the primary focus because of having a HOF in Shaq until later on whereas a lot of these other players mentioned were marked men as soon as they step onto the court their rookie year.

I think at least for the first 3 Shaq was the clear #1 no way around it..Kobe was far better than your average #2 so i'd say he was like 1.5 or so.


Shaq wouldnt have won those rings either but Shaq was able to make it to the finals with other really good wing players (penny, wade) finding a player like shaq is much harder to find than a player like kobe - just the nature of the NBA and size in the next 20 years you'll find far more players coming out of college similar to kobe than shaq.

its a tired argument personally he won those rings, played a huge role in all 5 title runs it shouldnt take away from his legacy


but no way in hell would I take Kobe over Hakeem if i was going to build a franchise given a hypothetical choice.

 

Phil Jackson is :grin:

 

how is fisher a hof? role player all his life. and gasol is not a hof.
im just a real basketball fan. sorry but just 20 and 10 isnt enough to get you in the hof. thats just me.

 

you cant compare the two players.
you just cant.

i love kobe more than just about anyone on this board. but hakeems game is something that has yet to be seen again.

 

I have no issue with Kobe passing Dream in the scoring department.
Dream does more than scoring and he holds tons of other great all time stats.

There's one stat that Kobe doesn't have on Dream.

Creating the beacon of Clutch City and setting the true example of what a Rockets hero should be to his city and organization and fans and to his sport.

 

What significance does a 20/10 season have that a 20.8/9.8 season does not?

 

Hakeem saved the city of Houston.

 

It all started at the University of Houston...

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Fixed, outside of maybe two seasons, Kobe has had a good team for most of his career. Nothing like the talent MJ; LeBron; Isiah; and others have had in their early seasons or the first of their careers, especially players, like Gervin; Pistol Pete; Rick Barry; and Bernard King.

I would've left out Fisher after 03-04; he was steadily in decline even in the championship, though, but almost all of those teams were ready made for being a title contender or at worst playoff seeded team.

Just because a team didn't have alot of HOFs doesn't mean they didn't have talent. That's not necessarily a good measure, just look at the Kings in early to mid 2000s; the Trailblazers from the late 80s to mid 2000s; and even all 3 Pistons title teams. Those teams didn't have more than one or two HOFs, but they had all sorts of talented players on the bench or ones who had in fact been all-star level talent at some point in their career and still respectable player.


Honestly, I believe Olajuwon could do more with alot of those teams that didn't win a title or go deep into playoffs, like 04-05 squad that bottom out at last part of the season with injuries. That season, the Lakers could've beaten almost any team in the West, except maybe the Spurs and Suns (Mavs are iffy), if they somehow ended up with Olajuwon in his prime (85-96).

A frontline of Dream; Lamar Odom; and Caron Butler would already be a building block to championship team, especially the role players were decent enough on defense and with outside shooting.

Shaq and Dream together, most nightmarish matchup for opposing teams ever. Same with putting dream, next to Bynum and Gasol.

Even an mid 90s Laker roster with the likes Van Exel; Eddie Jones; Elden Campbell; Cedric Ceballos; and few other odd guys, like Sedale Threatt and Anthony Peeler would be title worthy in the 90s.

For one a great Center in basketball is going to be the end all to be all, that's just natural. Kobe couldn't on his best day effect the game, like Olajuwon would. Outside of scoring, Kobe doesn't bring any extra dimension to a game or even intangibles that Olajuwon did or could (I'll even say other high scoring wings as well). It also doesn't help matters in the case, where Dream was a much more unselfish player than Kobe.

Outside of the ring (obviously because of surrounding talent) and not too greater scoring average, in what way is Kobe a better player than Olajuwon?

 

You guys are putting Hakeem over Kobe now just because he is a center. So HOF center always > HOF guard

So I guess Hakeem is over Michael Jordan as well? I mean because Hakeem also rebounds and block shots right?

One thing I've seen Kobe do over and over and over again is make key shots. Demoralizing shots. We know, when the Rockets were relevant not so long ago Kobe would always seemingly always hit 2-3 crazy contested fadeaway shots that would be enough for them to win the game.

Also lets stop pretending Kobe a 8x all defense first teamer is a non-factor on the other side of the ball. There is something dominating about a perimeter player that you can't stop from scoring.

A guy that puts pressure on you every time down the floor to score, because if you don't he will score and your team will find itself down by 7 suddenly with 3 mins left to play and no way to stop said player.

As for him being selfish, every great player is. Kenny Smith always talks about how Hakeem would demand the ball and if he didn't get it you'd hear about it. In fact pretty much everyone wanted Yao to start doing that and Dwight now. All the great players have a similar selfish attitude.

 

Who cares. Kobe will never pass Hakeem in blocked shots and steals.

 

Well, here is what you do not understand, a great guard is limited in his impact on the game, he cannot account for post defense and usually needs to be boosted by other positions. It's just nature of the game, most centers put together have more titles and MVPs than best shooting guards and small forwards, while they are dominating the title picture in NBA history.

Having a great center on your team is like having a great QB, or even better because center has to play defense, and can greatly enhance a team's overall defense than any guard could.

Just having someone, like Mutombo; Dwight Howard; or Olajuwon patrolling a paint is enough to boost a fairly mediocre team defense into a fairly respectable unit.


You cannot include MJ in this argument, because he is like one of the only players, outside of maybe Isiah Thomas and Rick Barry who won without a great big body in the middle. Those are really the only three players that really broke the mode of needing a great big to win. Also, Kobe has only averaged over 30 ppg, 3 times in his career vs. MJ's 10, while being a less efficient player shooting the ball, while also not having as many assists as MJ career wise.

Kobe again, cannot even really be compared to LeBron James and other great scoring wings, like Gervin; Pistol Pete; and others, because he was fortunate enough to play one of the most talented teams in the league for almost 11 seasons. It's ridiculous how people knock these players for not winning titles, when they are in drafted into 2nd and 3rd rate franchises.

I'm sure Dominqiue; The Iceman; Pistol; and even our own Tracy McGrady's careers would look alot different, if they all started their careers on a premier franchise teams, like the Lakers or modern-day Spurs with player Tim Duncan's caliber.

The aspect of demoralizing team for Olajuwon went way beyond hitting 2 or 3 crazy shots (which also has been known to be Kobe's Achilles heel when he is not hitting his shots or playing in the offense). Olajuwon's impact on defense was to say the least , profound. He not only keyed on stopping the opposing center, but even regulated the paint, like security at Fort Knox. Teams were often frightened to go into paint, or even not be very successful at doing against the Rockets. Because, the "real" Nigerian nightmare was waiting back there. Also, let's look at how he often chased down speedy guards, like KJ or came over for weak side defense and slow down opposing power forwards. He also was light weight at taking wing players on one-on-one at times, sort of like Kevin Garnett, but better.

Kobe's never had that type of impact on defense, let alone been capable enough to win defensive player of the year; he's good to great defender at times, but he is not in the same level with Pippen or even younger Michael Jordan (who had shut a few opposing shooting guards out in DPOY season, shut out meaning the entire a game). Kobe often has trouble against shifty players or those wings who can move around alot, or have a game that is somewhat based in the low post. He has been selected to 8 All NBA defense team, so what. Do you really think he has been the best or one of 5 best defenders over last 8 years? Barely, maybe even flat out no.

Also, why are you disregarding the crazy shot ability and demoralizing offense of one Akeem Olajuwon. You don't think he demoralized the Lakers in 86, the teams that Rockets often played throughout his career in the playoffs and regular season; and most of all, his two title campaigns in 94 and 95. Do you really think Kobe's fadeaway is better or more unstoppable than Olajuwon's? Moreover, athletically speaking, do you really think Kobe is a better pure athlete than Olajuwon, or even as mobile/agile as taller framed player. Who is just as muched doubled and tripled teams as Kobe.

Also, do you not realize when it comes to scoring, both players are averaging about the same amount of points in the playoffs, 25 ppg. While, I'll even say that Olajuwon has never had type of talent around him for most of his career that Kobe did and does. For their careers, Kobe is only averaging 1/5th of point more in the playoffs, while Olajuwon is scoring 4.1+ more points a game than he did in regular season.

Olajuwon has also defeated more quality opponents and been in tougher situations, while being really only go-to player at times on offense. Kobe has for the most part of his career had another good scorer at his side, maybe two.

 

Kobe was the focus of many defenses for half of his career. Don't post of any of that bull**** about him having HOF players, that really has nothing to do with the amount of points he's achieved.

 

+1

next thread please.

 

Poor comparison tinman. Hakeem could not have been Superman, because he had no kryptonite.

 

Just like Hakeem cannont account for having a offense run through him, and guard perimeter players. If that was the case then everyone would just be centers.

You sure about the MVP thing? Looks about even to me. No one is limited on their impact on the game. Magic Johnson had as much impact as Hakeem did. Anyone watching the Suns and Steve Nash a PG that almost single handedly keeps his team relevant and had them as contenders for a couple of years with no Center.

Great players are great players period.

Has Shaq ever won a championship without a great guard? Shaq always hed Penny, Kobe, and Wade. Kobe and Wade took over games in the playoffs, Wade was the main reason the Heat won their championship. You don't ever hear ppl say that about Shaq "He's never won without a great guard"

Well this is another subject because I believe every man on the football field is as important as the next. QB can't do his job if he doesn't have time and no one is open.

Just having a go to guy on the perimeter is enough to do the same. Take Rose off the current Bulls and you don't have much of a team. With him they are one of the best teams in the East. Look at what Iverson did in Philly, the list goes on and on of great guards not surrounded by much but elevated their team play.

Yeah I can. Because the point some are trying to make is that Hakeem is better than Kobe by default because he is better at rebounding and blocking shots. I would hardly consider Pau Gasol a great Big man also. Before he played with the Lakers he was considered a soft PF with his weakness being defense. Finesse PFs IMO are not big men, they are taller SFs.

What about when Kobe wasn't playing on one of the most talented teams?

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He had MULTIPLE nights like this, even at one point having a silly string of 40+ games. Yet his scoring goes down when he's with more talent and still everyone calls him selfish and other silly things.



If the Rockets had Dwight Howard right now we'd be #1 team in the west.

Well I can agree, I'm not here to slight Hakeem in any way.

Kobe's never had that type of impact on defense, let alone been capable enough to win defensive player of the year; he's good to great defender at times, but he is not in the same level with Pippen or even younger Michael Jordan (who had shut a few opposing shooting guards out in DPOY season, shut out meaning the entire a game). Kobe often has trouble against shifty players or those wings who can move around alot, or have a game that is somewhat based in the low post. He has been selected to 8 All NBA defense team, so what. Do you really think he has been the best or one of 5 best defenders over last 8 years? Barely, maybe even flat out no.

Playing perimeter defense is a entire different animal of course. Thats why perimeter guys barely win DPOY any ways. Better yet, playing SG and defense is again, a tough task. Since the SG is usually the one of the most athletic and the best pure scorer on the team. No he's not been the best overall defender for the past 8 years, but he's been one of the best at his positions which is what he's been voted in for.

I am not disregarding anything. Hakeem was one of the most, in fact he was the most skilled Center to ever play the game.

I really don't care about Hakeem vs Kobe.

What I do care about is defending great players like Kobe, and I said Kobe hits demoralizing shots time and time again. At least he did in his very prime and it looks like that may be slipping away. Kobe's fadeaway is pretty deadly, Kobe's jumper is pretty deadly. To the fact that there is no guarding it and even the best defenders (Shane) will tell you there is no guarding it.

Well if Hakeem had such a lesser team then shouldn't he have averaged more ppg in the playoffs? Obviously Kobe doesn't have to score 30+ for his team to win games.

I'm not for arguing eras because everyone always says the past era was tougher etc. It's a nostalgia thing and the funny thing is when Kobe retires ppl will sit back and realize what he accomplished in his career instead of talking about "Oh but he had this talent around him" because all champions have pretty good players/coaches/staff around them. That's what makes the entire team champions.

Hell no one ever talks about the Talent Jordan had, ppl act like he just did it by himself without another all-time great player in Pippen. That's exactly why Kobe had to win a ring without Shaq (Shaq without Kobe).

 

I love Hakeem, and understand that he is arguably the best center to ever play the game (probably along with shaq and russell).

But to say that Hakeem is a clear cut better player than kobe is a bit of a homer view.

Like Jaygoogle have said, kobe's impact on the game is just as much as hakeems, just in different manners cause they play different positions.

But IMHO, if I was to start a franchise around 1 player, it would be Hakeem just because big men are much harder to find.

 

and rebounds. Throw in FG% as well :grin:

Hakeem, one of the greatest centers ever played the game.
Kobe, one of the greatest SGs ever played the game.

2 great players I don't know what these arguments all about. You can't go wrong with either guys.

No matter how many rings Kobe win, his legacy will be forever tainted by those 3 horrible seasons from 04-06.

 

Kobe passes Olajuwon

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=6070354

"Hakeem had this move that bordered on walk or travel," Jackson said. "McHale had one, too. It's very hard to duplicate that. It was kind of a shoulder-shrug, shake-and-bake thing that he had where he'd come back in the opposite direction, but he was so quick at it. Kobe has good post-up moves. I'm sure he learned some things about posting up [from Olajuwon], but he didn't imitate Olajuwon's move."


Right, so Kobe didn't imitate Hakeem but Kobe did learned a lot. Phil should appreciate Hakeem teaching Kobe a few things. What's Phil's beef with Hakeem?

 

that was going to happen sooner or later but a loss is a loss