LOL you have no argument at all. Your "Kobe is the best player since MJ" is pure CRAP. Kidd and AI took their team to the finals. Kobe has yet to make the playoffs. AI won MVP, Kidd was 2nd in MVP votings. has Kobe cracked top 5 ? AI has 4 scoring titles, Kobe's going to have his 1st. Go figure. Dirk, Wade etc have better records and their team will smoke Kobe. Dirk doesn't have an all-star on his team and they have one of the best records in the league. Wade is shooting over 50% for 28+ points a game. You kidding me ? ohhhh wait Kobe has a bad supporting cast !!! say what ??? Kidd and AI also did !!! So you want it both ways ?! Don't tell me if Kidd signed with the Spurs he won't get three rings. Or if AI replaces Parker he'll get less rings than Kobe. Play with a MDP on the planet will get you rings. I probably went a tad over to say some of them are definitively better, it's all arguble but where are these "Kobe's head and shoulder above" crap come from ? I don't hate Kobe, but this "Kobe is the best player since MJ" crap cannot be tolerated.
Kobe was 3rd in MVP voting in 2003, beat TMac in his best year. Kobe lead Shaq in MVP voting for years 2003 and 2004, I would as well say Kobe was the leader of that team and he lead them to NBA final. Kobe has 5 all defensive teams appearance and counting, AI has none. Scoring title is really nothing, AI may have 4, but Kobe shows he can score 35 a game, something nobody achieves since 1988. Wade barely shoot 3pts, that's why his % is up, but point per possession efficiency is no better than Kobe's. And as good as Wade is, without shaq Heat have a losing record. And shaqless squad is still way more talented than Lakers.
Kobe doesn't have a finals MVP to his credit, they all went to Shaq (just like all of them went to MJ and none to his sidekick Quitten). Since when did you all start rewriting history? Kobe is now the leader of that bunch? Man this is going a little too far. The difference between Shaq and Kobe is that Shaq leads his teams places. He's only missed the playoffs in his rookie year and his sidekicks (repeat: SIDEKICKS) struggle without him, while he doesn't struggle without them. Don't start talking crazy. Everyone knows Shaq was THE MAN on that team. His playoff numbers take a dump on Kobe's. And thanks for bringing up how Kobe finished above T-Mac in MVP voting (4th vs 3rd) in 2003 even though McGrady had superior numbers. That kinda goes back to my point about how historically mediocrity isn't rewarded just because you have great numbers, team accomplishments should mean something. Now just like you all rewriting history with regards to Shaq/Kobe, you're trying to justify his team's mediocrity because he has great personal numbers. It's like you all will create excuses specifically for him ... a walking double standard.
Kobe is a great individual player, he will not be considered Hall of Fame until he makes his team better. DD
Probably, if he keeps going.....I just think he is overated as a team player. He is great individually, but he just doesn't elevate his team. DD
not trying to be offensive to you DD but that has to be one of the silliest comments i have ever seen. he has already won championships and he is leading a HORRIBLE team to the playoffs. he plays stellar defense and is a non-stop competitor. what more do you want? just the lack of lebron/nash-like passing keeps him out of the hall? come on man.
The fact this thread is still going proves that Kobe is not light years ahead of anyone in the NBA. . . . . we wouldnt be arguing it.
that's great you think that, but he's a hall of fame lock. wasn't it earlier in this thread someone pointed out the 82games.com stat about him improving his team's offense more than any other player in the league, and by a significant margin? and by "doesn't elevate his team," are you saying the lakers would basically be 42-37 right now if you took him off the team for the whole season?
I could agree Kobe>AI, I'd still say Wade was better than Kobe this season. As long as you are not trying to prove "Kobe is head and shoulders above" or "Kobe is the best player since MJ" I'm all OK.
out of curiosity, and my youth, did Human Higlight make his teams better? Dominique I mean. I knew dude was insane, but some of the old timers fill me in on his career.
Great point, the answer is no...he is probably very much like Kobe an amazing talent but did not elevate his team or teamates, ala Jordan, Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Isaih, etc...etc...etc... DD
It's funny you mentioned Wade, since the Big Aristotle's the reason why Kobe doesn't get credit for his role during their championships... Kobe ain't the best since MJ (Shaq is), but Kobe has the credentials of an elite player. Those credentials are much better than the players you listed in your entire reply.
I don't know which "list" are you talking about. If it's the one you quoted, then the "entire reply" I only compared "two" players in career credentials. "entire reply" LOL, what a drama queen. And I didn't see anything to support Kobe has "much better" credentials than Kidd or AI. Let me claim kobe has the credentials to be an elite player, he has better credentials than Wilt Chamberlain. I mentioned Wade exactly was trying to say you can't have it both ways. If I want to argue Wade is better than Kobe this season, I'd use his 50% shooting stat. I won't use the better team record much like I won't use Kobe's 3 rings to prove his "the best player...." whatever.
Wait, did u just basically say that Dirk's supporting cast is equal to Kobe's? I think you did. You think Dirk is a better player than Kobe? Stackhouse, Terry, Josh howard, darrel armstrong, dampier, daniels, van horn VERSUS Odom, donkey, donkey, donkey, donkey, donkey, monkey
He won his championships because of Shaq and Phil ~ the Lakers making the playoffs this season is the work of Phil Jackson not Kobe.
If Shaq was leader of that team, why would Kobe lead shaq in 2003's MVP voting by a landslide, why would in 2004, when he had a notorious charge, still finished ahead of Shaq? You are saying if the columnists and reporter were very r****ded. You were trying to make a case for AI and Kidd, and none of them had final MVP either. Kobe lead that team into final, they didn't even play triangle the majority of the season, just ask phil. To say Shaq was leading that team is just as ridiculous as saying Shaq is leading current Heat.
Wade couldn't have a winning record without Shaq, and with Mourning, j.Will, Payton, Haslem, Walker all on his side. That's a supporting cast way better than Kobe's. Not to mention Wade plays in the east. Either Wade couldn't make his teammates better, or Wade was simply not as good as Kobe. In comparison, Kobe had a 6 games above .500 in west with interior roles.
Last time I checked, Shaq won nothing without Kobe. He couldn't even make final with the "best guard" he ever played with. And put credits on coach and put all blames on the player is just double standard. Did Nash achieve anything in Mavs? Hell, that team was even getting better without him.
Those Laker teams wouldn't be where they were if Bob Horry or Derek Fisher or the refs did not hit those big shots or make the big calls in their play-off runs Yes- Nash help make the Mavs a high-scoring, fast breaking team built to win the regular season. Going to back to the topic...I don't see Kobe as being light years ahead of everyone else. I do believe that he is having a career season just like AI and he should get MVP considerations in a season where there is no clear favourite. In terms of Kobe v Shaq in terms of performance and value to the team. Shaq is an easy choice for me. I confess I hated Shaq early on because he dominated because he was bigger and stronger than anyone else even Hakeem. Kobe was still critical to winning those titles but Shaq was the foundation that enabled guys like Horry, Fisher and yes Kobe to close out the games and earn big contracts. Kobe had his moments of dominating perfomances-I'll give him credit for that. To me there are 3 big reasons why Shaq not Kobe is a 3 times Finals MVP. He was the monolith that absorbed 99% of the opposition's game plan, justified it by playing at an MVP level on those 3 successful Finals trips and made the game easier for everyone on his team. Kobe is an undeniable individual talent...there are things that even Shaq cannot do. If the focal point of those championship teams were switched from Shaq to Kobe...imho the Lakers would not be as successful. Shaq would become a by-stander and disgruntled in a Kobe driven offense. He would not be motivated to be the 36-15-5 foundation that elevates the Lakers from the pack of contenders. That would have suited Portland, Sacto and SA fine.
