Kobe had one thing that MJ and Lebron didn't have.

Are you saying that a 22 year old Shaq is on par with a 28 year old Shaq?

B/c we're talking about Shaq/Kobe's 3-peat years. During those years, Shaq was widely considered the best player in the game. So if you replaced Shaq with a different center, you'd be weakening the position. Also, that means you'd be facing Shaq in the playoffs.

Additionally, there's a huge difference between an "elite 5" and a 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon. 1994 & 1995 Olajuwon played at GOAT level.

Kobe has never won a title without the best frontcourt in the league.

Kobe fans like to downplay Gasol, but he was one of the best 4/5's in the game at the time. He single-handedly led the 2006 Grizzlies to the 5th seed. That year, Kobe led the Lakers to the 7th seed.

Incorrect. They were the best frontcourt in the league due to their size/length and their offensive/defensive abilities.

As opposed to where Kobe is and how he played last season?

And then Bynum got hurt, the Lakers fleeced Memphis, and they lost in the finals. They won the following year when they had the best frontcourt in the game. What's your point?

Yep, he's made the finals with 3 separate star shooting guards. Wouldn't you agree that casts doubt on the whole "Kobe was irreplaceable" narrative?

 

How do you do individual quotes? I want to learn how to do that. I'll just address them one at a time.

1. I'll give you that.

2. There's a huge difference between 08-10 Kobe between his contemporary SG's also. Are you saying that if you put Ray Allen with Gasol and Odom you would get automatic championship? I find that hard to believe, having watched all of the games where it came down to a few possessions and no-one on the Lakers seemed to want the ball. Truth is that the Lakers, despite their talent, relied just as heavily on Kobe's "hero ball" because the individual players lacked drive in critical moments. You really have to watch all the games to see this.

3. Kobe nearly upset the Suns with a team of Parker, Odom, Brown, Walton, and lesser players. That's pretty impressive.

4. Refer to post above. Who did Kobe have in 06? One Shane battier is worth Kwame Walton and Smush put together. Also, how many playoffs has Gasol actually won in the playoffs? Zero. I appreciate Gasol as a player, and he was irreplaceable on the repeat Lakers, along with Odom (See? not that hard to give a player some credit.)

5. They were the best front court on paper. Without Kobe they're just talent. Talent alone doesn't win.

6. Roll your eyes all you want, but Kobe barely stepped on the court last year. When he is playing he is still a top 6 player in the league.

7. My point is Kobe without huge names and talent was still a threat to all teams, and with good coaching was always competitive.

8. Shaq won with a prime Dwade, who had a lot of referee help. In fact I say Wade carried more of the load than he. Kobe subsequently won with 2 great front court players. So don't tell me Shaq is the sole determining factor in all of this. Shaq didn't need a switchable SG, he needed THE SG of the time. Even then he also needed a complete team of clutch role players.

 

I insert the "QUOTE=supdudes" and "/QUOTE" into the applicable places.

Sorry, but there isn't. A 2008 Kobe was past his prime. A 2009 & 2010 Kobe had PER of 24.4 and 21.9. Those years, Wade had PERs of 30.4 and 28.

I think a Odom/Gasol/Bynum frontcourt becomes a contender with Wade/Pierce/Ginobili (if he can maintain his production with extended minutes)/maybe Allen/maybe Vince Carter.

Interesting. For all of Kobe's "hero ball", I don't remember him hitting many clutch shots in his last 2 title runs. I remember clutch shots from Fisher, Gasol, and Artest, but not so much Kobe.

And McGrady nearly upset the Pistons with an even worse supporting cast. You don't get bonus points for nearly winning a series.

Who did the Suns have in 06? They started Nash/Raja Bell/James Jones/Marion/Boris Diaw.

If Kobe were as great as his fans thought he was, he would've led the Lakers past the Suns.

Disagree. The Lakers would've still won if they replaced Gasol with Garnett. Maybe Dirk.

The corollary is that Kobe was one of the best sg's on paper. But without the best frontcourt in the league, he's just talent. Talent alone doesn't win.

Even if he can replicate his 2013 season, I'd still put Lebron/Durant/Paul/Griffin/Anthony/Howard/Westbrook/Harden clearly above him.

Except when he didn't have a dominant frontcourt.

Are you saying that a 33 year old Shaq is on par with a 28 year old Shaq?

 

Thanks. I appreciate it.

PER is one thing. All of the basketball world calling you the best SG is another.

It is very difficult to say. It may be possible, but imo only with 2 or more of the names listed above. I also don't think Carter and Ginobili belongs on this list.

Not every close game ends in a buzzer beater. There's a Youtube compilation of Kobe's clutch-est (literal heart breakers) shots that is 15+ minutes. As someone that's watched alot of Lakers basketball, I can say for a fact that there were alot more. There's a reason Kobe has the ball in crucial possessions. Gasol and Artest don't even come close.

You don't. Unless you have D-leaguers for 3 out of 5 starters.

That's not a bad line-up at all. It also compliments Nash very well. Raja is a great slasher and shooter, along with Marion who can leap out of the building. Diaw has always been a great passer. He and Jones were also decent 3 pt threats too.

You can disagree, but where's your evidence? Neither KG or Dirk are as good at passing as Gasol. The reason Bynum benefited next to him was because Gasol set him up for alot of over the head lobs- So called big to big passes. Gasol also was a decent enough threat on the low block to draw attention away from the perimeter, where players like Vujacic and Odom can operate. Dirk is a great primary option, however along side Kobe that would not be the case. He just is not that great of a player without the ball in his hands. KG is a strong defender, but did not have the court vision that Pau had. I will say that KG + Kobe would have been dangerous, though just as much credit goes to Kobe. While the two players you mentioned may be ranked higher in terms of individual legacy, Gasol is up there, and more importantly had the skill set to take the Lakers to the championship level where the other two would not.

He's great on paper, but nowhere near the best as you've aptly shown with the Wade comparison. I don't know what to say here. If you think Kobe is just talent then...That's another discussion and I disagree mightily.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I would, at the minimum, take out Westbrook, Griffin, and Anthony. Regardless, it seems we agree that Kobe's up there with the best. My point about the previous players still stand. Even Pau has played terribly- Coaching and injuries aside, Kobe has been the most consistent of the two.

Odom and a 20 Y.O Bynum make a dominant front court? I don't think they were going to win it all without Gasol, but still, I implore you.

A 28 Y.O Shaq isn't God. He had weaknesses that I believe only a SG like Kobe and the right system could compensate for. That's the core argument in this thread, and I doubt it can be resolved easily as there are bias on BOTH sides, pro-Kobe and ...well...Clutchfans.

 

Supdudes. Although i disagree with you, i have to say i approve of your discussion. You are trying to have a real discussion. Unlike goodbug.

 

Thanks, that means alot.

I believe that is what a basketball forum should be about. Real discussions between people being real to each other.

 

funny thing is that both Kobe and Shaq didn't win squat until Phil Jackson arrived.

 

Kobe has two things they haven't.

He can speak Italian well and he can play soccer having spent significant time in Europe.

 

haha damn, even though this thread started out as a trollfest, you guys have made it pretty solid. Sadly, it looks like I missed a great debate on here. If you look on page 4 of the thread I think I posted some telling stats from the 4 finals that Kobe/Shaq went to during their years together. Kobe played god-awful in 3 of those 4 finals, so I would definitely say Kobe was less valuable to the lakers during that run (arguably he could be replaced by several "elite" wing players from the nba at the time and still won, but there was no replacing Shaq during those runs. No other center during that time could carry a team like he did.

 

He had Horace Grant.