Kobe had one thing that MJ and Lebron didn't have.

A rapist's wit.

 

What about Pau Gasoft, Kevin Garnett, Chris Webber, Jermaine O'Neil, Yao Ming, Ben Wallace, conversely any seviceable big could have replaced Shaq. Kobe would have happily taken on a larger scoring role.

 

The same goes for if the Duncan or Shaq team goes against Kobe. We will never know. If Kobe had Gasol in the 2006-2007 season they prolly would have beat Miami. His team outside of an unmotivated Odom was piss poor.

 

you substitute any of those players in for Shaq and they don't win Kobe's first 3 rings. Shaq was on another level....

 

This is easily one of the stupidest things I've ever read on Clutchfans...

 

Agreed, from 1999-2004 Shaq was the most unstoppable center I've ever seen. You could have substituted Kobe out for several other players and they still would've won I bet.

 

Shaq was a liability at the FT line thus hack-a-shaq was born. He was unstoppable down low but if you had a PF or Center like Dirk who could pull him out of the paint on defense his dominance downlow can be countered with 3's and good shooting altogether. MJ's Bulls with Rodman could have arguably beaten Orlando. I rescind the "any serviceable big" but if Kobe had another star big like Malone then they could have a chance.

 

Absolutely wrong. If you try to guard Shaq with a stretch-4 like Dirk, he'd dunk the ball every time and the Mavs would be forced to make defensive adjustments.

 

Dirk cant defend shaq. Nobody can but who is going to defend Dirk? And pulling Shaq out of the paint on D opens up the lane for Kobe. I'm just saying that Shaq and Kobe were phenomenal players who were unstoppable together. Separated who is to say that one would be more successful than the other with other complimentary stars?

 

Who cares? Shaq's team would score more frequently and efficiently. Shaq's dunks > Dirk's 3's.

Obviously Shaq would be more successful since he was more effective and had a greater impact on the game. That's not really debatable.

 

Shaq in Orlando would've won been more godly than he was then.

 

I like how several pro-Kobe posters here write valid arguments about why Kobe was irreplaceable on that particular team, and people just come in and dismiss them all with something along the lines of "Shaq was the best."

This thread needs to end. It's become a circular discussion.

 

It isn't just 3's. Esp. Taking into account the ticky tack fouls called on anyone who breathes on Kobe. was Dirk and Kobe then they would be able to score from almost anywhere on the court whereas if Shaq were to be pushed out of dunking range, then he was pretty worthless offensively and if he was fouled, you would get possession maybe 60% of the time

 

So you're saying there was a stretch 4/5 who could shoot 3's and was capable of pushing prime Shaq out of dunking range?

Forget the stretch 4/5 part. Was there anyone in the league at the time who could push prime Shaq out of dunking range?

 

I'm still waiting to hear those valid arguments...

 

All I will say is if you consider the "Shaq was the most dominant player" argument a valid one, you can certainly find valid points that support Kobe's case littered in this thread.

Unless you are biased.

...

 

No I don't mean Dirk guarding Shaq. You have an Oakley type doing that. Yao held his own with Shaq, Alonzo Mourning could have, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, I believe there was a game where even Shawn Bradley had like 24 points against Shaq. He was dominant but that doesn't mean that teams had no answer for Shaq like they didn't for Hakeem. The reason the Lakers were deadly was because of
Shaq AND Kobe. You stop one but you can't stop both. And even if you do stop both then the refs help and Horry hits a clutch 3.

 

The "Shaq was the most dominant/effective player" argument is valid because he was obviously the best player in the league, and it's easy to imagine how guys like Allen/McGrady/Iverson would thrive in a Shaq-centric offense.

On the other hand, Kobe has never won a title without the best frontcourt in the league, and he wouldn't have that if he didn't play with Shaq. At that point, you're assuming that Kobe and an elite 5 would be able to beat a team led by Shaq. However, since Shaq was easily the best player in the league, that's an illogical assumption.

 

Do you realize we're talking about the 3-peat years? 2000-2002. Charles Oakley? Olajuwon? Karl Malone? Robinson?

Alonzo Mourning's kidney problems started in 2001. Regardless, In the 16 games Shaq played against Mourning in his career, Shaq's team won 13 of them, and Shaq averaged 30.4 ppg on 57% shooting.

Against Shawn Bradley, Shaq (over 33 games; Shaq's team won 28) averaged 29 ppg on 65% shooting. And considering that in those games, Bradley averaged 16 mpg (to Shaq's 36 mpg), it's safe to say that Bradley's coach didn't see him as a "Shaq stopper".

I'm still waiting for you to list someone who could push prime Shaq out of dunking range...

 

I don't like hypothetical because they don't mean anything. To level with you though, I can offer a counter argument.

Shaq had an elite wing in Penny in Orlando, and did not win a ring. In fact they lost to a team with a better center (Olajuwon), not a better SG. Switch Kobe with the Glide in that 95 series, I say that the Rockets win also. So I don't see why a Kobe pairing with another elite 5 is automatically a weaker team.

The fact that Kobe has WON without Shaq, or a truly dominant center all together, proves that a Kobe-centric offense can match up with the best of them. The triangle can facilitate a Kobe lead offense, with Kobe doing alot of iso's and post ups when there is a versatile 4/5 like Gasol and avid rebounders like Bynum and Odom. They were the best front court in the NBA because they complimented Kobe and the offense, and not because of the names on their jerseys. If you don't believe me, look at where Odom, Bynum, and Ariza are now and how they are playing.

Speculations are speculations, but here are some facts:

-in the first half of the 08 season, Kobe's Lakers were atop the Western conference. They had Odom, a budding Bynum, and NO Gasol.

-Shaq has never won a ring without an elite 2.