Claiming that Lebron has not had a career on par with Kobe and MJ so far is not a bold claim. It's perfectly reasonable. However, saying that Lebron is not in the same league as Kobe right now, or that Kobe is closing in on MJ are both bold claims. Kobe is maybe closing in on Tim Duncan. That would put him in the top 10 all-time. But right now, he's still around #12 IMO. And I'll just ask again, if we're using ring count as the measure of greatness, why aren't we talking about how nobody can come close to the GOAT Bill Russell?
Incorrect. Lebron did not underachieve in the 2009 playoffs. He played out of his mind in the Orlando series. It was absolutely NOT his fault that his team lost. I don't get how Lebron underachieved when he played better against Orlando than Kobe did. The difference between Cleveland/Orlando and LA/Orlando was Dwight Howard's play, not Lebron's or Kobe's. And neither Lebron nor Kobe was responsible for how Howard played. Lebron did play poorly in two of the last three games against Boston and could have certainly done more to help his team win that series.
I'll concede that lebron did take his foot off the accelerator during the boston series, because he found out his teammate was screwing his mom, he felt betrayed and clearly didnt wanna be on that team anymore. Kobe has coasted on his team before too, so the "quitter" argument goes both ways. But he did score a triple double his last game so, meh. Lets see what he does this season, especially against boston now that they signed delonte. Its gonna be a bloodbath.
what consensus thought lebron underachieved in the playoffs in 09? everybody was in awe of his play and thought he was superhuman. i do agree the majority, including myself, thought lebron played below his level (b/c i have great expectations) in the boston series (he still played better v. boston than kobe did btw ). i did think if lebron put up his usual #s, the cavs should have won. but the fact of the matter is he's the better player than kobe bryant. why? 1) he's more consistent 2) he's more efficient 3) he's a better defender 4) he's more durable 5) he plays a more well-rounded game 6) hell statistically, he's more clutch than kobe bryant EVERYTHING is in lebron's favor except kobe's team is the better team in june. but lebron is NOT in the conversation of the GOAT until he wins a ring. that's the only thing missing in his career. and he has positioned himself in great position to do that with the heat.
Lmfao @ 3-6 I didn't know it was accurate to label someone a great defender off of highlight reel block plays. More Durable? Hell, Kobe's been through so much this past season - statistically prior to his injury he was on pace for one of his best seasons, yet he still found a way to get it done in the end & LeRobin instead used a phantom excuse "elbow injury" because of his inadequate play. Winners find ways to win, losers find excuses. More rounded? Lol, yeah lets neglect the fact that Kobe still has the most potent/versatile offensive repertoire in the game. Even your Rocket's own Hakeem credited Kobe's dedication to getting better. So the notion of LeBron being better is off of what? Because he's highly efficient of getting into the paint? or that he's a freak of nature athlete? Reconsider that. Lol, certain stats are misleading in so many ways. I didn't see LeBron hit those ridiculous game-winners. The argument can be made for LeBron as the best player in the REG. SEASON, but to even deny Kobe of the "best closer" is asinine. But in the end it's Kobe's work-ethic that puts him over the top (and over LBJ in my eyes) Kobe's dedication to the game is surpassed by none, his desire to win is unmatched and you can't teach that, this is why even at this juncture of his career he's at the top of the NBA echelon. Nuff Said
Lebron is a great team defender and can play lock down D when needed. If you don't want to base that on his highlight reel dunks, how about we base it off of how he completely shut down one of the league's premiere perimeter scorers (Pierce) in the playoffs this year. I agree the durability issue isn't that big. Kobe has more nagging injuries, but he generally plays through them. More well-rounded = better scorer, better rebounder, better passer. Lebron didn't hit all those game winners because his team wasn't down by one or tied at the end of games. He was usually sitting on the bench relaxing for the last couple minutes because he took care of business early. When called upon, however, he still produced at a higher efficiency at the end of close games. And here's what the Kobe fanboys always return to in the end. The completely subjective "will to win" and the unquantified "work ethic" that both put Kobe over the top. I won't argue with these because these aren't legitimate arguments to begin with.
1) lebron is a better defender than kobe. he got more votes than kobe for 1st team all-nba lst year and he guards the best player on the floor of the opposing team more often than not (even before the lakers got ron artest). 2) durability isn't that big of an issue, but it contributes to lebron's consistency. he is MUCH more consistent than kobe. that's FACT. 3) well-rounded, you're arguing that? who's a more efficient offensive player? who rebounds more? gets more assists? blocks?... do i need to go on? but oh yea, let's go to the "intangibles" you kobe fans like to use. yes the work ethic, the fiery competitiveness... so is KG > lebron? geez
Wow, there is a lot of BS being thrown around in this thread. I'll try to go in order, with the bolded in BS. Kobe stopped whining and entered 2007 with the same team. Bynum, they gut he wanted shipped out, started to ball. The team started to lose games once he went down until the Gasol trade happened. Bynum's development (bigs are kinda important in this league) and Fisher's return made all the difference in LA. Kobe wouldn't want to join up with a stud like Wade. Kobe tried to get the Lakers to get Kidd and KG, while KG was in his prime. Kobe's trade demands were cool because the team had a lack of talent. While the Cavs had more talent than the Lakers when Kobe wanted out, they still had less talent that the top teams in the league (Lakers, Magic, Celtics). You wouldn't take Mo Williams over the 2nd or 3rd best players from either one of those teams. Both players wanted more help. Also, the only reason Kobe didn't get traded is because he had a no-trade clause and wasn't going to be shipped off to a team that didn't have a core ready to win. The Chicago trade fell through because the Bulls would have had to give Deng back. If kobe had a 60 win team, that never would have gone down. Kobe was quite content to see the team that just went to the Finals in 04 broken up, wasn't he? LeBron underachieved in the last 2 postseasons. LeBron played better against Orlando than Kobe did. Too bad he didn't have 2 legit 7 footers that could hold Howard without doubling, or two long wing defenders like Odom and Ariza to hold Turk & Lewis. His PG couldn't even knock down open shots like Fisher did in the Finals. Way to ignore all of those differences. All of you "he is riding his coattail" posters are going to look very, VERY stupid when LeBron is the main option for Miami next season and probably wins another MVP, or at least gets more votes than anyone else on his team. PLEASE DON'T HIDE WHEN THIS HAPPENS!! Someone already mentioned it, but LeBron won't have to win more rings than Kobe to be considered better. If he keeps throwing up these crazy stat lines and gets 2-3 then he is going to go down as one of the top wing players ever, ala Larry Bird, who "only" won 3. And did goodbug really say the Lakers would only win 10 games without Kobe? Did West really do LeBron's mom, or is this just a rumor everyone is running with?
LeBron is a better defender than Kobe? LOL. He may be a better highlight blocker, but not even half of shut down defender Kobe is. Kobe defends from 1-3, he shut down Rondo, and Melo in prev season when he switched to him in 4th. Kobe was good enough to shut down Rondo and wore out RA at the same time. LeBron could only see his team being torched by Rondo and Garnett, shouldn't he be able to defend one of those guys when they're hot? What durability you are talking about? LeBron is 25. For record, a sprained finger kept him out for weeks. If he got a broken finger like Kobe did, he's gonna call it a career. And that kind of injury is pure luck. I see LeBron way more vulnerable than Kobe. LeBron doesn't know how to play in post, how to play without ball, or even set a proper screen. He goes to the paint to make a living and that's high maintenance, he needs a center that can shoot from outside, put him with Shaq and apparently they don't match. He also counts on Refs to bail him out. He had playoff game winners over Wizards on 5 steps layup. He had Stern tailor this handcheck and crab dribble rule for him. Kobe plays in triangle, LeBron plays in LeBron offense, that made him a ballhog, got him more assists, but didn't make him a better all around player. Hell, I've never heard an all around SF that can't play in post.
if you are going to attribute kobe stopping rondo, you're being a homer. kobe gave rondo a ton of space and rondo still go around him, only to be deter by the lakers' big men, who are faster and more agile than the cavs' big men. ray allen? i would give more props to derek fisher. lebron shut down paul pierce WITHOUT help. straight up shutdown. lol, blaming the refs? crab dribble? again, kobe fans keep reaching. like i said and i repeat: lebron is more EFFICIENT, scores more, rebounds more, passes more, blocks more, and i can just go on and on. so just keep using those things that can't be quantified in your arguments. i'm just stating facts. the only things kobe has over lebron are: rings, a better post game and jumpshot. and THAT'S IT.
if goodbug really stands by his claims, he would make a bet with us for tipjar money: 1) lebron gets less MVP votes than wade that is a good sign of riding coattails. so goodbug, up to you.
That bet should extend to the numerous posters that claim LeBron is riding Wade. I'm in. What about the rest of the "he is bopping" crew?
i'll extend that to anybody. if they truly believe lebron is riding wade's coattails (and they post that belief with conviction), they should be down for $50 to the tipjar. me personally, i have ZERO doubt lebron will be the heat's best player and garner the majority of the MVP votes. so i'm down.
Who is this guy? If the real t_mac1 stands by his claim, the world already ended at 1996. And he must be a ghost now.
