The rings count. Just recognize he obtained them as the 2nd option, similar to Drexler and Pippen. I would argue that Pippen's role was larger on every Bulls title team. The most dominant clutch scorer? What are you basing this on? You don't see to understand the concept of "defensive attention". Yes, Kobe looked like one of the best clutch scorers (when it really mattered...playoffs) when he was playing next to Shaq and not receiving the majority of the attention. I saw Wade get the same kind of freedom in 06 and he looked even better, completely dominating on the biggest stage. However, since Kobe has had to lead a team he hasn't looked anymore dominant (when it mattered) than the top swingmen of his era (T-Mac, AI). Where was this dominance this past postseason? Where was it when his team was up 3-1? Where was it when his team missed the playoffs in his first season as the man? Why do you only pay attention to the time when Shaq was around (when he clearly wasn't getting #1 stud defensive attention) and not on what he has done since leading his own squad (i.e. putting up great numbers but having no playoff success...i.e. the same thing as T-Mac, Vince, and others). Towards the end of Kareems career Magic was considered the best in the game for some seasons (i.e. when he won MVP's, regular season and Finals). During Shaq's dominant reign Kobe was never in either discussion. You are completely biased if you can't see the team was "Shaq led". That's like me saying the 95 Rockets were Drexler led.
The only part I take contention with is the Heat's run. I don't believe any other player than Wade could have carried that Heat team to a title. Shaq admitted it was Wade's team. The MVP vote was a no brainer. In fact in the playoffs that year the Heat did better with Zo in for Shaq. http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/0506MIA.HTM This was largely due to Shaq playing so poorly in the finals (see second table, Shaq a -32). http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/playoffs.htm The Heat finally got traction in the Dallas series when they ran everything through Wade and had Zo in for defense. Shaq was actually the #3 scorer even behind Walker, both around 14 PPG to Wade's 35. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=mia&seasonYear=2006&season=3&split=6 Now in contrast look at Shaq and Kobe's last year in LAL and their playoff result. http://www.82games.com/034PLAL.HTM or http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=lal&seasonYear=2004&season=3&split=8 Kobe shot less than 40% and an abyssmal point per shot (efficiency) in the finals despite Shaq playing great. And against for the most part the same team that has had no answer for Wade and Lebron. We can also look at Shaq's career and see the massive drop off beginning about 03. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=847 In short it is impossible to argue Kobe was more of "the man" for any of his titles than Wade was for his. Wade carried a much inferior Shaq than Kobe ever had to play with to a 4th title. If it wasn't obivious enough from watching the games and seeing MVPs and such, raw and composite (82games) stats show it crystal clear. Kobe was a fantastic second banana, jock strap rider, whatever you want to call it. He hasn't proven anything beyond that as a team leader, and if he had realized his place he might have had more rings instead of the 3 Shaq made possible for him.
Everybody knows Shaq Daddy was the reason LA won those 3 titles, and once he left, so did the titles. It's not a mistake he went to the finals with 3 different teams. Kobe on the other hand is just a very good player, a great scorer when hot and given total freedom, but a terrible teammate and an awful leader. People don't follow him because he doesn't have the maturity as a person to ear that kind of respect. As of now he's a chucker who looks just like PP, AI, Tmac and the rest with their respective sorry teams. The 1st year Nash won MVP and Kobe homers were wailing, LeBron James led Kobe in every category, rebounds, assists, fg% ,team wins, clutch, etc.. except for points. Kobe led him by 2ppg more and only that because she shot 200+ times more than LeBron. I've never seen a guy get so many accolades for something he didn't earn. He has no awards to prove any of the madness that is spewed about his suppposed greateness. Even if you want to go on the scoring argument, AI is far ahead of him in career total points scored it's not even funny.
Much deeper? Who? Tim Thomas was a major contributor on that team (just obtained). So was Raja Bell and Diaw (just obtained from ATL). They had like a 6-7 man rotation. James Jones...Eddie House??? Were they deeper when they were down 3-1? THEY HAD NO BIG-MEN. I can't believe you are really trying to argue that the 05/06 Suns were deep. Stop being a hater......
I did not say they were "deep", I said they were deeper than the Lakers and an overall better team.... Which is true
Were they really deeper than LA? By the time the postseason rolled around LA was healthy. Nash > Parker Bell < Kobe T.Thomas = Walton Marion = Odom (depends on who you ask) Diaw = Brown Barbosa > LA bench The Lakers were dominating the post in the first four games and were up 3-1. I agree that the Suns have the better team, mainly because they have an unselfish superstar while LA has the opposite. LA had a chance to beat Phoenix. They lost one game because they couldn't secure a defensive board 9either game 5 or 6), and Game 7 because primadonna Kobe spent the whole 2nd half staring at everyone. Do you not remember that series?
Kwame Brown is equal to Boris Diaw? Luke Walton is equal to Tim Thomas? especially that series..... Take Kobe and Nash out of the picture, Smushy / Raja Lamar /vs/ Marion Walton / Diaw Kwame / Thomas + / + ? / Barbosa / Jones / House I don't know about you, but I would pick the Suns supporting players over the Lakers 100% of the time... Not one player on those Lakers other than Kobe and Lamar would get minutes on our Rox this year.....
One doesn't need to be a "blind Kobe lover" to think that he's the best player in the NBA. I am still convinced that he is a rapist, and I think he's a snake. Doesn't change my opinion that he's the best player in the NBA. "Blind Kobe lovers" are only found among Lakers fans, who somehow can manage to defend his acts even with him recently turning his back on his team.
rafer alston> parker. this was already a bad mismatch. the fact parker sucked royally the whole series made it even worse. but still not the advantage of nash over parker. and then there's the rest. maybe marion's playoff suckiness and odom having a pretty good series actually made this somewhat even. diaw having a crazy good series made this completely uneven. definitely the lakers offense was bad those first 4 games. well below their season average. and even with kobe being very efficient, which speaks to how much worse the rest had to do. much like it's funny how many people think the lakers offense was the problem last year (so that they can blame kobe's selfishness for the lakers not doing well) despite it being better than noted praised unselfish players tmac, lebron, and wade's offenses, it's amazing how many think they got up 3-1 b/c the offense was flowing so nicely in the post and with kobe sharing. in reality, their defensive strategy was very sound and they got lucky the suns were missing shots. once the suns turned their shots back on, they won 3 in a row. of course. being significantly more talented has little to do with it. luke walton, kwame brown, smush parker. a 1, 3, and 5 for the ages. 3 guys who had averaged a combined 13 points the year before, and that's even giving parker full credit for his 3 points even though he was out of the league most of the year. raja bell by himself averaged 13 the year before. which was a game kobe took over at the end and hit like 3 shots in the final 2 minutes that would've won it until the offensive rebound and tim thomas 3. yeah, if only kobe hadn't been starting at everyone, that 25 point lead would've been down to 0 in no time. nevermind it grew from 15 to 25 when he wasn't staring at everyone and the rest of the team had obviously given up or that kobe had about 24 at half on 60% shooting, clearly that loss falls on kobe. not that he should've done what he did, but that had zero impact on the final outcome. do you not remember that series?
Agreed, Kobe is actually one of my least favorite players, Along with Carmelo and Scottie pippen, but I do think he's the best all-around player in the league...
Any time I see people use ring-count to measure the greatness of a player, I stop arguing. Horry is a greater player than Hakeem by that logic.
You don't think championships should be factored in, when determining a players greatness? I will just agree to disagree if thats the case.
Exactly. Is Steve Kerr better than Charles Barkley? Is Bill Russell 11 times as good as Moses Malone? Rings are a measure of team success, not individual talent. There are too many great players that have zero titles to say that ring count is a good measure of a player's greatness. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, and Jason Kidd have combined to win 6 fewer rings than Snottie Quitten.
Diaw started getting off towards the end of game 4. Their play was pretty even up until that point, when LA was up 3-1. http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2006.html The Lakers offense was better than the Suns offense in 2 of their 3 wins. They were winning because they were dominating the paint and slowing the game down. This is where the bigger bodies of Brown and Odom were really making a difference. I wouldn't say they were lucky Phoenix was missing....they were forcing them to play a slower style. They started running with them in the last 3 games, the Suns regained tempo, whatever. The Suns weren't significantly more talented, especially when you consider that they had NO bigmen. I do think they just played better as a team though. I agree. I didn't say Kobe was garbage. I said he hasn't done anything to seperate himself from his peers since he has carried his own squad. All of those dudes played with scrub teammates as well. Play till the end man...don't quit and pout....
Championships should be factored in, just recognize each players role on the team. Alpha dogs - Hakeem, Bird, MJ, Shaq. Sidekicks - Drexler, Pippen, Worthy, McHale/Parish, Kobe. Role players - Horry, Elie, Cassell, Mourning, Fox. Another stud guard got to the Finals with Shaq. Another won a title with a lesser version of Shaq. Yes Kobe has his rings, but it is obvious that other guards could have playoff success with that big beast.
