Few people question Kobe's individual basketball skill set as the best in the league. He is also the best scorer in the league. If this is your criteria for best basketball player, fine. I happen to value winning, leadership and impact in the 5 on 5 NBA game. And you, know, the NBA playoffs. I don't recall ANY votes for Kobe as the MVP in the Lakers runs. I don't recall ANY votes for Shaq in the Heat's run. Shaq even said it was "Wade's team". Kobe hasn't even been past the 1st round without Shaq as the man and as great of a scorer Kobe was the Lakers were much easier to beat the greater Kobe had the ball versus Shaq. Opponents knew it, the Lakers new it, Kobe was the only one who was late caching on and he has fewer rings because of it. Duncan, Wade, Nash, Lebron--those our your "best basketball players" (maybe not in that order) if winning NBA titles is your goal. Kobe can have all-star games and other events and those such labels that just show individual skill sets outside the team concept. The results from the last 3-4 years of playoffs show this crystal clear.
but he was up 3 to 1 against a suns team without amare and only nash/marion as all-stars like kobe/odom all-stars. nashs team came from behind and crushed kobe and the lakers. its when i knew that kobe like tmac is human too and can lose a big lead in a series. kobe is great but overrated.
Right now, on ESPN Classic they're showing Lakers vs. Raptors, 01/22/06. Aka, Kobe goes for 81 pts. So if you guys want any evidence of Kobe being the best player and a "team player" who finds a way to bring his team a win, go ahead and watch the game.
Football is boring. It's incredibly boring. As is Baseball. I've watched soccer (I lived in Barcelona for six months not too long ago) and I can't get into it. It just annoys the hell out of me how long it seems to take for them to even manage to get all of the way down the field with the ball. But then, I'm not even really a sports fan so what do I know. I call myself a basketball fan, but to be honest, should the Rockets cease to exist or leave Houston, I probably wouldn't even watch basketball.
Because he wasn't the best player on his own team for any of those titles. I'm not going strictly by Finals MVPs, I'm going by who the other team puts more effort in to stop. For example TD is still the best player on the Spurs by a mile, even though Parker won the FMVP. He won that award b/c of the attention given to Duncan. Come on, Magic started at center in the Finals as a rookie and led his team to victory w/o Kareem. He actually proved he could do it without Kareem (not to mention the '87 & '88 Kareem was a joke). Bryant has yet to do that.
On any given day Kobe is the best player on the court. But that doesn't translate into being the best player when it comes to winning playoff series and carrying your team deep into the playoffs. You have to find a way to carry your team even when your shot isn't falling, against good defenses sometimes it won't, and the ability to still dissect defenses and set up teammates in those situations is what seperates Nash, TD, Wade, & Lebron once the "real season" begins. Just look at Kobe versus Detroit (even when he did have Shaq) and Wade versus Detriot and Lebron versus Detroit in those playoffs over the last 3-4 years, very telling. And granted Nash doesn't have a title. But he has been out of the 1st round for x many years and 2 years ago Nash's ragtag bunch beat Kobe's team even down 3-1. The Suns didn't have Amare or Thomas all series and even managed to beat the Lakers in game 6 at LA with no Bell too. The regular season backed it up big time, and Kobe, well, went out with a whimper.
So the fact that Kobe is a superior individual player counts for nothing? Or that by subordinating his game to Shaq and Phil's schemes, he won 3 championships, beating loaded Blazers, Spurs, and Kings teams along the way? Your only argument can be then that Kobe had superior support in the form of Shaq to win his championships. You seem to be arguing that he didn't do anything in those championship runs, but that's clearly ridiculous, so I'll assume you don't mean that. Well, Duncan had the support of Elliot and D-Rob in the start of his run, and by the end he had the support of Parker and Ginobili. Basically he has always had the support of two All Star players. Nash is currently trying to get his team out of the WCF, despite having all-star support in Stoudemire and Marion. Lebron has just this year found playoff success, but he plays in the Leastern conference, and his support is significantly better than Kobe's. Wade also had Shaq to win a title, who wasn't as broken down as he is now, and if Wade were so amazing surely he and Shaq could avoid a humiliating sweep, injury or not? None of this makes me a Kobe lover. I think he's a snake (hell he thinks so too, he calls himself Black Mamba), and I think he's a rapist. I am still convinced he's the best player in the NBA.
Do you think the guy with the best individual skills is neccessarily the best team player. Is the best 1 on 1 guy the best in 2 on 2? Are the best 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 players the best 5 on 5 players. Are the best 5 on 5 guys in pick up games (All-star type environments) the best 5 on 5 games over the course of seasons and 7 game series. I think think the answer is NO to all of them. He receives credit sure. Just as Pippen does for his rings and Drexler for his, like Kobe, future hall of famers and 1st team all NBAers. Take those guys off of their teams and their teams have few to no collective titles. But everyone knows who the best player on those teams were, and there never was much debate who was playoff MVP was. Some of these players you exaggerate. For TD's 1st ring neither DRob or Elliott were legit all-stars at that time. For his 2nd ring he had nobody close to an all-star level. Duncan's last two titles haven't been as clear cut. Nonetheless, Duncan has been the constant with lots of other interchangable parts. Also, Kobe's squad was deeper and probably better than Nash's 2 years ago. Certainly in game 6 when Kobe had the chance to clinch on his home court. Nash made his team better. The other years, yes, there is no comparison on the supporting cast. Now for Wade's title, that was really a rag tag group. Shaq, though he did play well in some earlier series, was even a negative presence on the court in the Dallas series. Wade carried that team that probably had no business winning a title. Wade had a Jordan-esk run, and the only run of its kind by a guard we have seen since Jordan left. Neither, Nash, Lebron, Kobe, Tmac--nobody has done that. (Billips did get an MVP, but like the Spurs this year it was clearly a team effort)
I don't understand why Nash and LeBron are in the discussion, neither has won a title, Nash has had opportunities with multiple All-Stars next to him (Nowitzki, Finley, Stoudemire, Marion), and LeBron plays in the Eastern conference. If you're arguing about team success, Kobe trumps both of them; he has rings and they don't. Rings are the pinnacle of team success. So that leaves Duncan and Wade. Duncan has always gotten great support, except in 2003, and he's not as effective as he was in his prime years. If all we did was judge by previous performance, then Shaq is still the best player in the NBA, when he clearly isn't. Wade has won 1 title, while Kobe has won 3. I think you're overrating the "he led his team to a championship" factor; the fact still remains that Kobe has 3 rings and Wade has only one. Since it's unclear as to who's actually the greater "winner", I think since Kobe' s individual talents and stats are superior to others, he's the best player in the NBA.
OK, so Cheap Shot Rob is better than Nash and Lebron. Obviously ridicolous. Kobe has rings, Kobe helped earn them. But NOBODY thought he was the best player or MVP of those teams. Showing you are a great second banana (Kobe, Pippen, Drexler) is a lot less exclusive than carrying a team to a champsionship. And Bob Horry has what, 8? But only one of these guys have been playoff MVPS.
oh yeah, stop bring it Lebron, and Nash's name out, just watch Lebron choke and panic like a girl at the free throw line and fire brick shots when it matters. Best individual player in the NBA: KOBE Best team player in the NBA: DUNCUN THAT'S IT, STOP ARGUING, GOD KNOWS THE ABOVE IS TRUE.
I don't understand why you keep thinking Kobe was always second fiddle to Shaq. It wasn't as clear cut as Jordan and Pippen. MJ was obviously option number one. Shaq and Kobe were more like options 1a and 1b. You want to know who had the ball in his hands at the end of a close game? Who was and is more clutch than between those two. That's right. Kobe. Shaq couldn't make a ft to save his life. Kobe was the dominant force in the fourth quarters of many of those games in the playoffs. I believe Shaq even sat out a whole fourth quarter in one of those games. If that defines Kobe being second fiddle to you, then I don't know what else I can say. Shaq wouldn't have won any of those rings without Kobe, and the same can be said about Kobe with respect to Shaq. The two best players in the NBA happened to be on the same team and I don't think it is really applicable to call Kobe second fiddle to Shaq. Go look up the playoff stats of Kobe during the championship years. Those are not representative of a second fiddle.
No, they weren't 1A and 1B. Go back and watch game tape. Go watch some Inside the NBA when Shaq first got with Wade in Miami. Kobe Bryant is the best 1-1 basketball player in the league IMO. When he played next to Shaq he got to go 1-1 the majority of the time because the other team was always focused on Shaq. It's hard to double down on the big fella when you have the best 1-1 dude on the perimiter. It's hard to double on the 1-1 dude penetrating because you must keep BODIES on Shaq at all times. That's why the combo was so deadly. Kobe played a huge role in all of those title runs (as Shaq can't close games), but Shaq was clearly the man on those times, and clearly the one receiving the majority of the defensive attention. Since Kobe has had to lead a team on his own and receive the attention that superstar leaders of teams get, he has yet to accomplish anymore than the other great superstar wingmen in his generation (T-Mac, Iverson, Pierce, Vince, etc). Sure his individual numbers blow away everyone besides T-Mac and AI, but as far as winning he hasn't seperated himself from them at all. The only seperation came when he was playing next to the big fella (as far as winning), and another stud guard (Wade) has shown that he could win with Shaq as well....so bye-bye no other guard would have won with him argument. A lesser guard got to the Finals with him as well (Penny). You can't mention the Laker titles and not point out how much "easier" things were for him as the second option. I vividly remember Drexler gushing at how open he was when he joined the Rockets....
Oh my lord. 'Subordinating his game' to win titles? Are you serious? I think we saw what happened when he didn't 'subordinate his game', and LA got blown away by Detroit. Parker and Ginobili are 'all-stars' BECAUSE OF DUNCAN! What a crock that because he's so good, Parker and Ginobili are now 'the reason' he wins championships to Spur haters. Just a complete joke. Let me ask anyone this - what legendary player never led his team to victory in a playoff series? I believe the answer is NO ONE.
So by your standard McGrady isn't even on the radar and hasn't ever. But no, he's actually better than Kobe, because he's a team-first player and Kobe's a ballhog. Double standard much? Seriously, this "leading the team to victory" is being ridiculously overrated. Neither Malone nor Stockton can claim credit for "leading" the Jazz, so are neither of them "legendary players"? Besides, it's not like Kobe's just sort of hanging around winning titles, he's winning titles averaging 26/6/6. Before Kobe got good, Shaq won absolutely nothing.
So consistently being on of the best East teams, even getting to the finals and beating Jordan's team, is nothing. Then getting 3 rings and 3 playoff MVPs. And then after Kobe getting to the conference finals and winning another championship (though that one was on Wade--just rewatch the Dallas series). You have the causality in the wrong direction for why the Lakers got over. Kobe was a great second banana, but Shaq became the best player in the league at that time (Shaq refined his game more and became a better passer) and Duncan was the only rival to that label. It is an incredible distortion of history to argue otherwise (that Kobe was the engine)--as if all the MVP voters (playoff and regular season) were blind. And if Kobe was such a great engine, you would think trading Shaq for an all-star and 2 other capable players (maybe another all-star or bear all-star) shouldn't have resulted in much slippage, let alone 500 seasons. Meanwhile the team that Shaq goes to, despite losing those players, has among the top winning %s in the regular season and playoffs. At least Lebron, bless his heart, didn't get dismanteld by the Pistons. The guy is young, still growing. Already a better team player and playoff leader than Kobe, but he has growing to do. Add Nash, Wade and Lebron in your 2nd category in any particular order and I am fine with that. I expect you won't be, but your probably from the same ilk a few months ago trying to argue Kobe is actually better than Jordan too. Some folks want to believe something so much than can ignore results after results after results.
Oh, So now Kobes Championships in which he averaged 30-6-6 count for nothing because Nash led a "ragtag" (Barbosa,Marion,T.Thomas,K.Thomas,Diaw,Bell) bunch of players and beat Kobe's outstanding roster of Lamar,Luke,Kwame,Smushy, and Bryan Cook. Come on man, Until Nash can guard a bench...Kobe is the greater overall "Player". Nash is a better passer Kobe is the most dominant clutch scorer we have seen since Michael and at the same time he can guard the opposing teams best player. Nash didnt make the Suns, he was put on a team where his talents mesh perfectly with quick, finishing athletes and 3-point shooters. Kobe has F!@#$%^ Lamar Odom and some D-League scrubs...prove otherwise And again, the score is Kobe 3, Nash 0 Oh BTW, That Laker team was not Shaq led, Its like saying kareem was the leader of the Lakers with Magic(completely untrue)
Kurt was injured the whole series and Bell wasn't there for game 6 where Kobe was at home and couldn't clinch. The Suns team for that game was barely 6 deep with no interior presence at all. Nash made Tim Thomas look like an all-star for Pete Sake. I assume you think Kobe is better than Bird and Barkley in their primes too. Magic wasn't a great defender either, I guess Kobe is better than him. And really, Kobe can give a better skills demonstration in the pre game warm up than Jordan too, Kobe is really better. That is the score for the number of titles they got each got playing on the back of Shaq, correct. Want to count MVPs? Wan't to count playoff wins post Shaq. (and again Kobe got 2 all-star in that trade, surely if Shaq was holding Kobe and that team back there should not have been that great of a slip by getting too very solid players to work with Kobe.
