Knicks Looking to Deal...

You're still the one guessing about it.
Are you sure now at least? Maybe you should try learning when one number is larger than another before commenting on addition or subtraction.
Surprised you caught my mistake when you didn't even know if 0.06 was more or not.
I have been humbled though and you caught me. Would feel very dumb but most likely you didn't notice it until Sailor made a comment this morning, seeing as you were up at that time oh night.

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When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!

[This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited June 06, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited June 06, 2000).]

 

If you think that 0.06 bpg makes that much of a difference, then you obviously have more mathematical problems than I originally thought.

Let me illustrate for you. 0.06 = 6 blocks in every 100 games = 1 block in every 16.67 (rounded up) games. Now factor this ratio to an 82 game season and you have Camby blocking a whopping 4.92 more blocks than Cato over the course of the entire season. Stop the presses!

I guess in your opinion those extra 4.92 total blocks are statistically significant.

Oh and I'm sure anybody not hooked on phonics noticed your mistake at a glance. It's fairly obvious. I commented as soon as I read your reply.

Now repeat after me:

I, JayZ750, was wrong.

I, JayZ750, will not call other posters an "idiot", while posting replies that make me look like an idiot.


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LaunchPad,

Now repeat after me

1.97 is more than 1.91

Never said anything about 1.97 being much much larger than 1.91. I said he blocked more shots per game, which he did.

As I said though, I mistakenly put 0.6 instead of 0.06. An honest mistake which I corrected. I obvioulsy know the difference between 1.97 and 1.91 and made a typo--heck, you had even stated the difference in your previous post.

If you want, you can change your post and no longer guess that 1.97 is greater than 1.91, but say it is and then argue statistical significance.

On that though, returning to the thread topic, my point is this. Cato is a good and improving defensive player. Camby blocked more shots per game than Cato. Thus, Camby is also a good young defensive player. KT, while young, and improving offensively, is not a good defensive low post player.

Anyway, IF you want to get mathmatical about it.

Cato:
65 games/24.3 minutes per game=1579.5 minutes total
124 blocks in the season= 0.0785058 blocks per minute

Factor that into an 82 game seaason, where say each player plays 30 minutes a game (a slight increase for both next year) and that is 2460 minutes per season and for Cato

=193.12426 blocks in the season or 2.355 blocks per game.

Now for Camby:
59 games/26.2 minutes per game = 1545.8 minutes
116 blocks total = .075042 blocks per minute

Thus, at 30 mpg and 82 games that is
184.6 blocks total or 2.25 blocks per game.

Yes, I know that in this scenario Camby does not block more shots than Cato ( I was just saying he blocked more shots per game this past season, which he did). Just did this to show that Camby would not block a WHOPPING 4.92 more shots in a season than Cato would as stated by LaunchPad. In fact, Camby would not have blocked more shots no matter how many minutes you would assume they play.

So, to wrap this up one last time. Both Camby and Cato are good defensive players. This thread however, does not talk about trading Cato for Camby. It is about KT for Camby, and KT is not a good defensive player.

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When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!

 

I have seen Camby in all the games he has played. Trust me when I tell you, Kenny Thomas is better than Camby. Forget what the stats tell you, he is better.

One thing Camby lacks is ANY moves down low and once he goes down there, he gets hurt. Plus, the league has him figured out. He didn't do squat this year in the playoffs.

Trust me, he aint good AT ALL. The only thing he can do for us is come off the bench for about 15 minutes. He is not that good.

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Live Rocketball. Breathe Rocketball. Die with Rocketball.

 

Now repeat after me:

The difference is not statistically significant (i.e. it might as well be the same).

And this is precisely why your original argument is weak. I only pointed out how minimal the difference really is.

Of course, you only made yourself look like a bigger moron with this reply:

"What the hell do you mean you guess? Are you an idiot? 1.97 is 0.6 more than 1.91. You dont even got to get technical about it.

Im not a mathmatician or anything but I can at least know when one number is greater than another."

Gee, you're defending yourself pretty passionately for a *ahem* typo.[/b]

Okay, I'm sure what you just said there might actually make sense to someone . . . anyone? My point was that 1.91 and 1.97 are just not statistically different numbers, so there doesn't appear to be any reason for me to change my post. However, good job on covering your @$$ by changing yours.

Uh . . . why are you arguing against your original point now

First, you argue that "(Camby) had more blocks per game than Cato did in very similar minutes", then you say that Camby "would not block a WHOPPING 4.92 more shots in a season than Cato". In essence, you made an observation about the past and now somehow you got on the topic of the future

You made a statement about one player being a better shot-blocker than the other. I corrected you. You got defensive and still can't understand why you're wrong.

But if you want to address the original topic of this thread:

Neither Cato or Camby have much going on offensively. Can you say "plenty of double teams on the guards and no low-post presence"? I knew you could.



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Are you a statistician or something? I doubt you are. Unless you happen to be one I am positive I know more about statistical analysis than you do. THAT being said, don't tell me what is and what isn't statistically significant. Do you know anything about linear regressions, standar erros, confidence intervals, means, medians, quartiles, percentiles, hypothesis tests--does any of this make any sense to you?? If not, don't pretend to be a statistician. If so, do some actual statistical analysis do see what the difference is before making a conclusion.

Second, FIRST I said Camby blocked more shots than Cato per game. You tell me, is this true or flase? TRUE. Then I said, based on a numerical analysis, which you felt inclined to perform, Camby would not block a whopping 4.92 more shots per season than Cato. How does this relate to the future. All I did was assume they played in all 82 games at 30 minutes a piece. I didn't say next year. Heck, you can assume they did that this past season.

I never argued against my original post. As already explained (apparently you don't understand) I first said he blocked more shots per game than CAto. Do you understand that stat? It means the total number of blocked shots divided by the number of games played. I used this to support the fact that Camby is a good dfensive presence ala Cato. Then, I showed that if both players played the same amount of time, Cato would indeed have more blocks. Not a tough statistical argument. So where is the contradiction.

I never made any statement about one player being a better shot blocker than another (Camby versus Cato)--if you find a statement that says Camby is a better shotblocker that Cato than go ahead and quote that buddy. I simply said that Camby blocked more shots per game than Cato. The reason I got defensive is because you are now putting words into my mouth that I didn't say.

I have already admitted to my mistake and corrected it. As I pointed out your mistake was that you typed that you guess 1.97 is bigger than 1.91. I pointed out that any educated man would have to be an idiot to guess if one is bigger than the other. If you want you can go back and change your guess into a fact--perhaps change it to say "Sure 1.97 is bigger than 1.91 but in my opinion that is not statistically significant". If that doesn't make sense to you for a second time too bad. Quite obviously you saying you "guess" is not a typo as that is pretty hard to mistakenly type whereas making the typo I did is pretty easy to comprehend. I make typos in here all the time. Often, most likely in this post I don't use proper gramatical english. It happens.

Finally, the original topic of this thread is more about whether giving up KT is worth it for Camby. The comparisons of Camby to Cato defensively are solely to show how good a defensive player Camby can be. Yes, they both have poor offensive skills, but Camby (ala Cato) is a MUCH improved defender over KT-Kenny Thomas-do you see whose defensive skills I am comparing here.

The end



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When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!



[This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited June 06, 2000).]

 

Ladies, please, not in front of the children.

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I just wanted to say this as a last post on this thread. Cato nor Camby are good defenders. A block shot is not the only ingredient in a "great defender pie", it makes only a small slice. Being able to redirect your opponent physicaly and mentaly, getting steals, intimidation, rebounding, and most importantly HEART, are all keys to being a great defender. Camby and Cato possess only some of these qualities and thus can eat only one or two slices. Camby is not an intimidator and frankly never will be. Camby does not have the strength nor the footspeed to force a player elsewhere, he doesn't have a knack of getting his hands on balls either(maybe he does in an other sense but I ain't even going there). The two things he does well is rebound and block shots, however he does not do them well enough to say he is better than KT or anyone else. The guy is a role player in this league, and is almost the twin of Carlos Rogers, this is no knock on Camby nor Rogers it is just that they are simply pawns in this league. At times they can be very usefull in sacrificing themselves but they are in no way dominant players and in no way are they irreplaceable. Cato like Camby is not a great defender. With Cato you have most of the tools to be a great defender, the only problem is that he just hasn't shown us that all important quality of HEART. If Cato were to actualy stay in the gym (he is working) and just bust his @ss every day and cameback next year and shows the organization the desire to play, then he will be the biggest aquisition we could make this offseason. However I just don't see him doing this. Desire and Heart is something we are just born with, and can't be taught, lets just hope Walt Williams is really the Wizard of OZ and can give our reluctant lion a Heart.

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"We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day


[This message has been edited by Scarface (edited June 06, 2000).]

 

I guess if someone told me someone averaged 1.97 blocks per game, I would consider that to be pretty dang close to two blocks per game. I guess if someone told me someone averages 1.91 blocks per game, I would consider that to be pretty dang close to two blocks per game. I guess I wouldn't ever consider that either feller would get a fraction of a block in a game. I feel like an idiot, because I got good grades in my college stat courses, but I still can't bring myself to say that feller that averaged 6/100ths more blocks per game actually "blocks more shots per game." Hep me sumbody.

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JayZ750,

sigh

If you really must know, I'm not a statistician. I am just a gradute student in neuroscience, so I do, however, know that I can hang with just about anyone on this bbs in a converation about statistics. As such, you can put down your math textbook, cause I'm not overly impressed by your reading of the glossary .

If you had claimed that Cato and Camby had approximately the same bpg average, I would have left you alone. Since you claimed that "Camby blocked more shots than Cato per game", I had to interject that 0.06 bpg is not a big deal and is not statistically significant (BTW you do know what "statistical significance" means being the stats guru you claim to be, don't you?).

I'll explain for the other non-statistical giants like yourself. When you collect a large amount of data (e.g. blocks), you will find that there will be a natural variation between trials (e.g. individual games). It is impossible to make exactly 1.91 blocks in each game (i.e. how exactly do you make a 0.91 block? ) When comparing 2 different sets of data, (e.g. Cato vs Camby bpg), you have to factor out the possibility that any differences you see are just due to random chance. Put another way, you have to factor out the chance that any differences you find will not be "statistically significant".

If you really think that a few 1/100's of a percentage makes a difference then, I suppose that you think that Mugsy Bogues 0.05 bpg average is pretty significant also. Let me rephrase that, you're arguing that he couldn't get 4 blocks in 80 games just by luck.

And as far as the "I guess" that you keep dwelling on, I was being sarcastic. That's why I also inserted the word "technically", because the difference isn't "statistically significant"there are those words your having trouble grasping again).

Oh, and as for the topic of this thread, if you think it's a good idea to have only 3 guys in your line-up that can score outside of dunking range, then I'm glad that you're not a Rockets GM. If the PF and C of the opposing team don't have to guard their men closely, then that they will be free to stuff every drive from the guards or SF, thus, relegating us to a team of jump-shooting small men.

Now, with someone like KT in there, he can fade out to 20+ ft, thereby drawing his man with him and allow ample spacing for driving and slashing from the guards. And as many people have already pointed out, Camby is not that great of a man-to-man defender. He is a weakside shotblocker and nothing else. I'm also not sure where the myth that KT is a poor defender came from. He may not block a lot of shots, but at 260 lbs, he is much stonger than that toothpick Camby.

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NIKE,

I think you mean 8.24 minutes for every block

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C'mon, lets get Chuck that ring.

[This message has been edited by Chuck04 (edited June 06, 2000).]

 

Wow,

Stats class comes flooding back.

By the way guys, College was fun, stay in as long as you can, unless you are a lottery pick.



DaDakota

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DaDakota,

I'm in a PhD program, so I'll probably be just about ready for retirement, when I finally graduate

But you're right, it sure beats the heck of actually going out and getting a real job


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Launch Pad-

I really want to be friends so I will stop arguing cause it is futile on both parts.

A couple of points though. People who can presently score outside of dunking range on our team: Francis, Anderson, Mobley, Bullard, Walt. I think that is about it. Kenny Thomas should nto be considered on that list. Why not?? First, his shooting is horrendous. He shot around 25% from 3 point line. Such desire to shoot outside led to overall poor shooting for the season--only 40%. Secondly, most good NBA PF's do not have great range. Karl Malone, Tim Duncan, Rasheed Wallace (playoffs not included), Dale Davis, Brian Grant (I think he is pretty good), Shawn Kemp (when he was good), etc etc. We all know what happenned to the last PF the Rocekts had who could shoot (Horry). If you think that the key ingredient in a big man's game is to be able to take their defender outside, then I am glad you are not a or our GM. I hope you are not saying you would rather have a PF who shoots only 40% from the field and takes a good number of 3's at a 25% rate. Show someone (especially a GM) those numbers before the season and they would say you are in trouble. In addition, Camby had similar PPG as KT did so we know they can both score similarly (not too good though). I just think Camby is a better PF defender. Perhaps not on post up moves (but I still think so), but his weak side help so overshadows KT's that that alone makes him an upgrade over KT in my opinion.

Also, I really do not care if you are a Phd student. That being said, I am a statistics major (among others)at the best undergraduate business school in the country, hands down (Where do you go to school?). I am fully aware of the term statistical significance and the many factors accounting for random error. That being said, a correct statistical experiment would test the relationship between successful basketball franchises and blocks by a PF, for example, performing the correct tests for confidence AND error, etc, etc, and would then make conclusions from there.

Once agan, I am quite tired and drained by this endless tirade. I do not doubt your intelligence (I too was being sarcastic---that's why I inserted: "You don't even got to get technical about it") and am quite sure that I can also, as you say, "hang" with anyone on this BBS, despite the simple mistake I commited. As some have already shown, the best thing to do whne making a mistake on this board is to just move on. I shall follow in their footsteps. I come in Peace Launch Pad, as I do respect a Phd student in neuroscience, alhtough I think that is kinda nuts, but good for you. Now chill out and I will too!!!

Off to bigger and better things!

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When I die I want to go peacefully like my grandfather. Not screaming like the passengers in the back seat!



[This message has been edited by JayZ750 (edited June 07, 2000).]

 

And today we Welcome to the world the STATS POLICE

A new member of the Police family, and a young sister for Dream, Serious and Spelling.

Cigars all round.


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CUT Tino
Isn't it amazing how quickly everyone did a Cat Backflip!!!!!

 

Congratulations, I say that to celebrate this grand occasion we all should correct a fellow poster.

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"Stranger things have happened, but none stranger than this" - Commentator after a parachutist landed in the ring of a Holyfield fight

 

Jay,

You should not say you want to make friends in the first graph, then hammer the guy in the 2nd.

Guys, the only stat that REALLY matters is that you outscore your opponent by 1.



DaDakota

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