Jeff, we agree again. I believe that we should execute murderers regardless of the race of the victim. Doctor Robert, you're right. It is tough talk. I don't really know what I would do. If nobody ever whacks a member of my family we'll never find out. Unless you have a loved one who was murdered then you also don't know what you would do. If you have had a murdered loved one, then you have my deepest condolences.
You all have very good arguments. I don't like violence, either. What would you do if you were put in a room with Alejandro Avila, rapist and murderer of 5 year old Samantha Runnion? I would tear his face apart with my teeth like a hungry lion and ask God for forgiveness and mercy on my soul.
Deterrence is not the only justification for the death penalty. Retribution is the other half of the equation. There is a price to pay for acts society considers heinous enough for the death penalty to be handed down. Personally, the ONLY reason I'm against the death penalty is the chance of killing an innocent person. I've posted before that my wife used to work at the Innocence Project with Barry Scheck in NY and so I've seen first hand those who've been on death row and later released because of DNA testing. No way are those cases the ONLY people who were wrongly convicted. On the flipside I figure there are cases where the DNA evidence brings the odds of a mistake to less than zero. Going forward maybe those are legitimate to pursue the death penalty on, but the current system has way too much probability of killing someone innocent. I also don't think the economic arguments for the death penalty are persuasive either way. We shouldn't ever kill for expediency or economy. There is a slope there where you can easily use such justification to 'take care of' the mentally ill or the homeless (as in Nazi Germany). And the expense of the death penalty shouldn't be a factor since the main expense is the system allowing the accused the maximum amount of leeway to appeal. I'd rather spend the extra cash and try to get it right if we're going to have it at all.
Perhaps I'd rather have the death penalty than have a convicted, cold blooded murderer spending life soaking up A/C that WE pay for, watching cable TV that We pay for, etc. I'd be more inclined to be ok dropping the death penalty if our prisons were more like Turkish prisons. I realize that I'll catch some heat for my comments. But my God people, you have to realize that some of these guys live better in prison than they do in society. They don't have cable TV on the outside...a lot of them don't have 3 meals a day on the outside. I am NOT in favor of not feeding them...but making sure they are entertained? Please...
Are you trying to imply that the DA will seek the Death Penalty based on race criterion over and above adequacy of evidence? Is it possible that there are other factors to explain the disproportionality? Were these the first "hate crimes?"
Just let me get something clear, he has to survive the fall for 20 days before he can appeal, i presume waiting at the bottom of the cliff... or does he have 20 days after the hanging to appeal???
There's a 3 year old 5 part series from the Chicago Tribune that documented the Illinois death penalty system. It's still up and it has a lot of damning evidence. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/showcase/chi-deathillinoisseries.special?coll=chi-news-hed <i> "In many of the cases, their guilt was clear. In others however, troubling questions of innocence remain...There were verdicts that hinged on kinds of evidences that have repeatedly helped convict the innocent, such as jailhouse informant testemony, hypnotized witnesses, and imprecise forensic tests. Other cases were tainted by inept defense lawyers. Sometimes, significant evidence impeaching the credibility of key prosectuion witnesses or implicating alternative suspects did not emerge after trial." "At least 35 times, a defendant sent to Death Row was black and the jury that determined guilt or sentence all white--a racial composition that prosecutors consider such an advantage that they have removed as many as 20 African-Americans from a single trial's jury pool to achieve it." "Forty percent of Illinois' death-penalty cases are characterized by at least one of the above elements. Sometimes, all of the elements appear in a single case. Dennis Williams, who is black, was sentenced to die by an all-white Cook County jury; prosecuted with evidence that included a jailhouse informant and hair comparison; and defended, none too well, by an attorney who was later disbarred." <b>"In the American system of criminal justice, the presumption of innocence vanishes once a defendant has been found guilty, and the burden of proof shifts from the prosecution to the defense" </b> </i> And just because some people have money to hire a good defense while other people doesn't in a case where the accused's life hinges on the case doesn't mean that we should accept it. It's like playing an all or nothing basketball game pitting WNBA team against a 70's women's basketball team... before Title IX was written in. According to to the ACLU, the federal death penalty has been used overwhelmingly against African American and Latino or Hispanic defendants. "Eighty-five percent or 17 out of 20 of those on federal death row are people of color. In eighty percent or 548 ut of 684 of the cases submitted to the Attorney General as a possible federal death penalty case, the defendant was not white." http://www.aclu.org/death-penalty/BiasesFedDP.html I realize that if there ever came a point where it did happen to my loved one or family member, I'd like to see the person rot in hell with the most extreme and painful death I can possibly imagine. But most victims who have witnessed the murderer's execution have wished it to be more painful or more humiliating. It's because of the unforgiving capacity of the murder and that the offender's execution made no change in the situation. It's also because the brutality of the crime can't be compared to lethal injection, which is considered a "painless procedure." The victims want the criminal to feel not only the the suffering that they felt, but also the suffering their loved one felt. But if death sentences are flawed and racially biased, what about the victim's rights of people slain by Casucasians who are not on Death Row? What about the wrongfully executed? What sense of closure will that bring to the victim's families? Those questions are moot because the victim's families will never feel satisfied from the outcome of the trial. Their loved ones have been taken away and nothing anyone can do will bring them back. We still live in barbaric times. The reason why there's an Amendment barring "cruel and usual punishment" is because we still hope that we can live in better times with better people.
Giddyup: I watched A&E this afternoon: "Set Free to Kill Again." Story of Robert McDuffie (?) who was famous as the Broom Handle Killer that killed 3 people in 1966 as a 20YO. Sentenced to death, he had his death sentence commuted to Life when the Death Penalty was ruled unconstitutional. Later he was released from prison because of the overcrowded conditions in Texas prisons. He went back once because he violated parole by pulling a knife on 3 young black men while he hurled racial epithets at them. A few months later he was released again in tht famous "Catch and Release Program." As a free man once again, he killed 5 more women over ~8 years before being caught and incarcerated again. A swiftly delivered Death Penalty would have meant that five young, innocent women would be alive today. I'm all for the economy of getting rid of these scumbags as quickly as possible so that we don't waste too much money on them ... other than making absolutely sure that they are guilty. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am wasting my summer reading a book on this. It got me hooked.... Thanks for telling me the ending though....
No, I'm saying they seek it WHEN THEY CAN GET IT. If a black man murders a white woman, the DA KNOWS he/she has a better shot at the death penalty than if a white man murders a black man. It's just a fact, particularly if you live in the south. They attempt whatever they think is possible based on the evidence and the chances at actually securing the death penalty. The death penalty is very expensive to try. DA's aren't going to waste taxpayer dollars to go after the death penalty if they feel the jury won't give it to them. It is much easier to get a prison term and much cheaper. If they shoot for the moon and miss, they blew a bunch of cash and the guy gets a smaller sentence than if they had asked for life in prison.
I agree very much so with Refman. Why in the world do you think there are so many repeat offenders? Not only is it cable t.v. and 3 nice meals a day, but plenty of time to play basketball, work out with weights and read from the library. I mean have you seen some of these so-called prisoners upon their release. Muscle-bound, well-fed athletes that in no way have been "changed" for the better. As for the pedophile child molesters, rapists and murderers, do you really think they can be "cured" of their sickness after spending 5-10 years in one of these "correction" facilities? All the little babies that have been raped and murdered recently, as far as I've heard, have been brutalized by these repeat offenders that have served minimal time in one of these fun houses. The current penetentiary system DOES NOT WORK. Period. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth works. Pick-up basketball, cable t.v. and good food doesn't. right1
Won't they seek it whenever they can get it... if there is sufficient evidence... regardless of the race of the victim or the perpetrator. Any male killing a female probably faces a greater likelihood of the Death Penalty than if he had murdered another man, right? Can the DA's pre-suppose the jury? Isn't the jury selected after the indictment? Doesn't the DA have a significant say in the make-up of the jury? Look at OJ.
Not necessarily. If a white, wealthy man who has a good attorney murders a black man in a majortiy white area and the DA doesn't believe they can move the trial, they will not seek the highest penalty. In many cases, they'll seek the best they can get including a plea bargain if necessary. They just want the guy locked up for as many years as possible. It is usually on the most high-profile cases, on the other hand, such as James Byrd that get the death penalty if it is a white on black crime. The DA knew that the high-profile, racially-charged atmosphere would make the death penalty attainable. They were right.
Refman, No one in my family has been murdered. Nevertheless, I know that if I were in any kind of rational state that I would never kill someone for revenge. If you want society to function, then you have to have faith in the criminal justice system. Also, I would guess that most people in prison don't want to be there no matter how horrible their lifestyle is in the real world. If current prison conditions are too good for the purposes of punishment then that is a reason for prison reform, not carrying out brutal executions. Haggard, The current system does work. Crime has been decreasing for 9 years. It has been shown that the certainty of punishment is more likely to reduce crime than the severity of the punishment.
I have to ask: from where do you get your facts about this? This presumes a racist citizenry broad enough to not be able to find an impartial jury--- anywhere in the US! I struggle with that one.
I don't get this they say "you have to have belief in the justice system", but they also cite "problem of failures in our system of justice"?!? How jacked up is that?!? I am trying to understand how the grass is greener on the other pasture, but all I see is the weed and feed contradicting it's intended purpose and burning the grass...The cows are chewing on burnt grass, digesting it as good and proper stuff, when in reality it appears as real crap,...which of course fertilizes more crap for the cows to chew on!...This is a perpetual, and endless cycle which the cows rely on to live fortunately or unfortunately... Meanwhile, the squirrels and the other animals are simply in the right pasture to be in, but bewildered how these blind cows are telling us their burnt grass tastes better! It is fortunate we don't eat cows, we might get mad cow disease!
Jeff, you are leaving a very important component out of your analysis of your facts- Over 82 percent of those on death row were convicted of killing a white person, though people of color make up more than 50 percent of all homicide victims in the U.S. The vast majority of murders occurs within personal relationships, and most murders occurs within the same race (86% of blacks and 95% of whites). Most of these murders can logically be presented to a jury as a "crime of passion", which can be pled down to murder 2 or life in prison. When you look at statistics where somebody murders a stranger, the numbers shift dramatically. Blacks are 7 times more likely to commit interracial murder than whites, even though the white population is much larger. In my opinion, it is alot easier to seek the death penalty when a person murders a stranger. I am not saying that racism plays no role here, but I think you are ignoring the reality of the situation. In addition 43 percent of those on death row are black, though only 12 percent of the U.S. population is black. Once again, during the 90's around 2% of the population was committing 50% of the murders (black men age 18-35). I think the above statistic represents reality, not racism.
Jeff, I am not sure but I thought at least several of the studies on the issue of race-based DP cases showed the problem to be consistent throughout the country, not just in the South.
