[Kevin Drum] If you hate the culture wars, blame liberals

Fair enough. I can see where you are coming from. About the quote, I have a lot ton of friends who are not white that play classical music as a career. Others who are influenced by classical music. Same goes for women and even a few transgender students I've had the privilege of working with. A lot of them are hoping for more diversity in orchestras across the country. This is something I am a big proponent of as well as teaching music from all parts of the world in classrooms. I don't think its fair to lump the perspectives of all non whites and women into one perspective. It really alienates the people who don't feel this way and makes me wonder who exactly feels this way and why? I'm not asking rhetorically, there is a lot I just don't know. Statements like that while they may hold merit to some, only detract from what a lot of my POC friends are trying to achieve.

The other point about exclusion - times were different back then but in fact there were many instances of black classical composers in Europe dating back to the 1700's. My main gripe is that these composers were not heard from as much just like brilliant black composers in the US like Julius Eastman who is just now getting the credit he deserves. These things happen though. Even Bach wasn't really discovered until hundreds of years after his death. We also have to account for the fact this was predominantly a white society in Europe and whether right or wrong, at the time they elevated their own. Austrians were proud of their own, Russians were proud of their own, etc. And sure there were minorities in those countries and there was obviously racism in those times. It doesn't mean that composers who we remember the most didn't have value, much in the same way that Mariah Taylor is qualified regardless of circumstance. How many Europeans or black people played Ragas in traditional Indian music? Do we need to have a conversation about the inclusivity of Indian music? How many Asians were a part of the great music that came out of Brazil? And I'm sure there was absolutely racism involved and extended well beyond classical music. Its important to keep in mind though we are talking about ideals in Europe centuries ago. This isn't the United States in 2021. One thing I've noticed recently regarded this immigration crisis in Europe - we can't expect every country to have the same idealism that the founding fathers gave to the United States. I hope that makes sense.

About Beethoven specifically, I see only articles trying to dismiss or belittle him because of his heritage. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. It really seems like all of these articles are negative. Even if I disagree, I can understand to some extent if someone wants to cancel a composer who raped someone or was a racist. But in Beethoven's case what is the negativity really about? And its not like white people have a ton of geniuses in classical music. Beethoven is part of the big 3. He is an exceptionally rare talent who happened to be white. The few black composers in Europe at that specific time did not objectively stack up in my opinion but we are talking about an individual who is one of the greatest of all time. Why not have a discussion about Brahms and why certain black composers didn't get the same recognition? Having said that, a lot of the best music of all time came from black people. Its really ok to have geniuses in different cultures. If you type in cancel Beethoven there are still debates however stupid it might be. What scares me though is all of the hits on google when you type in cancel classical music. Also there is certainly a debate about music theory as a whole being discarded. Admittedly most of these people I've come across are white people with very questionable ability and are probably virtue signaling. Its just a confusing time. And what does it mean for more recent composers like Webern or Schoenberg or American composers like Milton Babbit or Elliot Carter? Classical music is alive with a very large output but struggling more than it ever has and this only makes it worse for those brilliant innovators who already don't get the credit they deserve when people choose to completely turn their back on an art form. That goes for musicians of any color. What does it mean for the increasing number of POC people in orchestras who don't get the support of their own communities because of these debates? The final question I had about the professor was this - do you believe we should erase advancements in music theory that might help people understand the world better if the man behind it was allegedly racist? It is entirely possible I'm drawing my own conclusions and reading too much into this but thanks for indulging me I've always been a fan of your takes.

 

If anyone was curious I was given the name spooner by my high school basketball coach since I was a lockdown defensive oriented wing. I did much of that stifling defense from the bench though

 

Delete

 

conservatives talking about some “war on Christmas” was the most nonsensical and ridiculous thing I’d ever heard…the only reaction I could muster was

 

“War on Christmas.” Nothing like empty illogical catchphrases to rile up the base lol

 

And then the slaves are freed and get to live their lives as free men and women. Just like ending slavery with war but with 6-700,000 fewer dead people.

 

Where did they call him a racist?

 

This is all hypotheticals but as stated slavery as the basis of a modern economy was a dead end and many knew that already by 1860. That doesn't mean that Southerners would consider blacks as equals just as most in the North who abhorred slavery morally still didn't think that black people were equal.

To keep slaves you have to feed and house them so if it's not economical to keep them that would likely drive end the system. What you might see then is some sort of share cropping system as we saw happen. We might also see a Northern migration also where newly freed slaves moved North for better opportunities.

Things might end up looking similar to how it did turn out but instead of happening in the 19th Century might've been in the early 20th Century.

 

Not sure trying to say Dems have moved further to the left equates to them being more aggressor in "the culture war". While Dems are more likely to make issue out of gender and racial discrimination, there isn't a massive effort to pass laws to prevent the right from voting, or limit the right's speech, restrict access of certain groups, or paint the right as racists / backwards as the right claims. However the right is guilty of all four of these - not just in words but in legislation.

So yeah, I just see this as trying to justify the right's "culture war" but saying, "hey, both sides are doing this therefore it's ok"

 

In the US modern economy, you are right. When you can get away with paying someone $10/hr, why on earth would you want a slave that you have to take care of 24/7 which would cost tremendously more. It is a testament to how terrible our modern economy is for the working class when we compensate people less than the cost of slave labor.

That said, I am not sure that is true in 1860. It might have been a trend, but the fact that slavery still exists in many parts of the world today (in the form of indentured servitude) makes me skeptical that the south would have ended slavery on their own - in fact it might have slowed the industrialization of agriculture for some time. But even if you did eliminate slaves in agriculture because of industrialization, you'd still have slaves used for household chores by the well to do.

 

I don't think they are trying to belittle or dismiss Beethoven at all. What they are saying is that Beethoven is embraced by today's white elitists, not that Beethoven himself or his music is elitist. He's become a symbol for them.

The Vox article isn't criticizing the 5th symphony - in fact, it's actual analysis is by far praise, but it talks about the relevance today and how that might fade given how classical music is VIEWED as elitist and therefore not relevant to many people as it should be given its historical importance.

Then what happens is you have articles jump on it and scream, "look now they are trying to cancel Beethoven!" - it's the ultimate strawman.

Thanks for the kind words by the way.

 

Where are the people who are saying we should cancel Beethoven?

The only people jumping on this article are those on the right - are you saying it's the right that is doing the canceling?

By the way, this shows how the culture war is in fact one sided. The left isn't even participating in this.

 

Remember the right attempting to save Dr. Seuss from cancelling by buying books from the company that actually discontinued those select Seuss books in effect rewarding said company for "cancelling".


The right has no consistent principled narrative here. It's just based on trying to fuel outrage and hoping their audience just understands the controversy at a meme level.

 

yeah right

racists are still fighting against people of color living as free men and women.

 

I assume "cancelled" implies that it's based on some culutural wedge issue such as someone doing racist things in the past.

This is some music proffesor making an argument to inject new music and has nothing to do with cancelling Beethoven or criticizing him for some cultural ill.

 

Sometimes I wonder if you just say **** to trigger people or actually sincerely believe what you type.