Martin is a STICK..he will get pushed around in the NBA like Manute Bol. Fizer is a brick, his game is SOOOO suited for the NBA. Fizer will be the best player coming out, that is, if he comes out this year. DaDakota ------------------
Terrance Morris. Mo Peterson. Kenyon Martin. Highschool superstar. If we can't get one of those, I say we trade down. I really don't see much else to like in the draft. Najera just doesn't have the athleticism necessary, and he's not a good enough shooter to make up for that. Mihm has lots of talent, but is too soft. He gets pushed around by smaller guys, and has trouble getting the ball. Fizer is a great scorer, but I think he'll run into the wall once he begins playing with larger, more athletic players. ------------------
In the ISU games I've seen, Fizer gets pushed around by *his teammates* for rebounds! If anything, he looks quality finesse to me for his size (just like KT). I still say we will find out next year that KT is underrated in our minds because of his draft position. ------------------ The farther the Rockets move down the standings, the farther I move down the bleachers.
HOOP-T, I agree. Fizer can play. If you remember, everybody was saying Brand was too short to play as well (at 6' 8"), and well, the guy is going to be a pretty good pro for 10-15 years barring injury. And unlike Martin (also 6'8'), Fizer has a big caboose to keep him from pushed around (and knows how to use it). I don't know which games ya'll were watching, but no-one on two of the most physical college front lines was moving an inch in the last two games. I did see a couple of very quality guys shoot over him (Moiso & that MSU guy (Hutson?) who had the game of his life), but nobody moved him (including a 265lbs and strong Gadzuric). As for him not getting that many rebounds, I suspect it was because he was letting the guards on his team get them while he was keeping his man away from the hoop--his team overall has done well in rebounding despite no one else being above 6’ 4”. Very fundamentally sound, even if it doesn't get the individual stats, did you see how much trouble his team had when he wasn’t in there? Fizer is way more athletic (a better jumper, has terrific hands and superior body control) and has a better court sense than KT or Corliss Williamson (all 3 are really what similar 6’ 7” 250lbs guys?). These guys play some 3, so should Fizer at least should be a significantly better at this position because of some of the aforementioned qualities. Fizer may not be a great NBA player and may not be as good as Martin if he fully recovers (not that Martin will be around for us to draft anyway), but he will be a notch above the Big Nasty or the current LJ or KT--all in my book are decent NBA players (it is not a knock to say they aren’t in Fizer’s class, which is what I believe). There is absolutely no way Fizer slides to 10, in fact I would feel fortunate to get him though I don’t think we will get the chance (I suspect he will go in top 4). [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 27, 2000).]
Will: You do realize the Rockets were playing the lowly Bulls? So a triple against them isn't exactly a great feat. Triple Bogey: Actually Najera is a dominant rebounder on the college level. He had games where he would pull down 17 or 18 rebounds against the best rebounders in the Bug XII(Mihm, Muoneke, Fizer). He would definitely kick Kenny's a$$ on the boards. It would take a lot to sell Kenny Thomas on me. ------------------
HOOP-T, I stand down...little viewage from me. I agree that size doesn't matter if the guy can command his space in the NBA. I, just like many others, require something noticeably extra from PFs that are his size. In KT's case, he clearly has unusual footwork. Saying he was the best player in the conference means nothing to me. As we know, saying someone's 1st team all-american doesn't necessary make them an NBA player. I hope you are right...HOOP-T. I'm on your side, cause we will have an opportunity to draft him. We'll know after Rudy invites him to camp and gives his assessment. Remember, to me my two primary choices are: take Fizer or trade for Fortson and Griffin. Of course, as RF34 says, we don't know what HSers are coming out, yet. Man...I'd trade our top spot for Al Harrington in a second.
The point is that Fizer isn't worth a high lottery draft pick. He's a tweener, for one... I don't think he can board well enough to be a true PF. He's not fast enough to be a true SF. In the NBA, I see Fizer as a 12 and 7 guy, and I think we need more than that. Seriously, I think we have to try to get a guy who can be a "star" in this league-not necessarily a superstar, but a 2nd option (Mobley can score, but I think a team needs a front court threat as well as good guards). Neither Najera nor Fizer really meets that standard. I would be shocked if Najera developed into more than a good back-up. Fizer, I think might be an adequate starter... but not much more. I don't want to draft Mihm, but I'd rather have him than either of those two. He might be a total dud-the guy just doesn't look like he cares, sometimes... but he does have a good touch, size, and rebounding ability. In all honestly though, I don't think ANY Big 12 players are suitable to be high lotto picks. Loyalty to the regional conference is nice and everything... but I'd much rather have someone from the Big 10 (read: Mo Peterson), Conference USA (read: Kenyon Martin), or the ACC (read: Terrance Morris). Btw, is Martin assured a full recovery? ------------------
Hazen, Glad you slammed the Big 12 and not me. now duck!! ------------------ The farther the Rockets move down the standings, the farther I move down the bleachers.
Mo Pete is a good player and nice safe pick, but is he that much better than a comparably sized ACC player (Carrawell), CUSA player (Richardson), Big West player (Alexander), Big Sky player (Arceneaux), or opps, oh no, another Big 12 player (Mason). Conference doesn't have much to do with it, I mainly want a guy significantly bigger than Shadon Anderson or we clearly will have to trade our pick or a guard (SA or CM). It just so happens two of the top 5 picks are both guys from the Big 12--Mihm and Fizer, who also happen to be BIG. These guys are also first team all-Americans, it not like those Big 12 fans are picking them out of nowhere. I also really like Woods, Haywood, Martin, Battier and Swift from other elite conferences, and hope most of them come out. I wouldn't touch Cleaves or Penn from the Big 10 though, I doubt they will do much in the NBA (Mo Pete and Redd on their teams have more potential IMHO). I also like Battier better than Morris, he shoots better and seems to have some fire in his belly and will likely come cheaper if he declares (higher pick). I can't say I have seen him that much, but I see too much Horry in Morris for my taste (warrent more than a late lottery pick). ------------------
I certainly don't have anything against the Big 12. I just listed those conferences because they contain players that I want . I merely think that people were suggesting those players out of team loyalty. Didn't you find it peculiar that soonrockstro was the one who suggested Najera? Or that UTballer is always high on Mihm? Carrawell really hasn't impressed me. He doesn't handle the ball very well, doesn't seem to have great moves (or create his own shot), lacks speed, and doesn't even have a great shot. Battier, I'll agree with you... I think he might be a great mid-first round pick... he's the sort of player who could quitely put up good #'s every night, play gritty defense, and make the rest of the team better. I like Quentin Richardson as well. In fact, he seems to be a great deal like Mo Peterson, imo... perhaps a bit more talented, but less developed. Cory Alexander? He can score, but I don't see the defense... and I'm very skeptical of mid-major players who can't carry their team past a weak opponent in the 1st round. Desmond Mason? I don't see why he's on this list. I've seen Mo Peterson and Terrance Morris completely take over games... Mason doesn't have the same sort of dynamic playmaking ability. Harold Arceneaux didn't even manage to get his team into the tournament. I think he's mostly a case of a decent player playing against scrubs. I like those underclassmen you mentioned, but I hope they don't come out. Doesn't the trend of underclassmen coming out sort of ruin the college game... and many of these kids really aren't prepared for the NBA game. I hope all of those players finish their education. Haywoode does seem to be a bit uninspired at times... I haven't seen enough of Woods to say much about him. Swift and Battier are great though . ------------------ [This message has been edited by haven (edited March 27, 2000).]
heypartner: agreed BTW, I attend BC, so I had a chance to see Troy Murphy in action this year, and I must say he looked good. I'm not sure how high of a pick one should put on a player with so little athleticism compared to others, but he managed to lead the Big East in scoring and rebounding, and has taken Notre Dame to the NIT finals. ------------------
Boys and girls, Heypartner, etc., I must address this issue. For all sakes and purposes, I like Najera. Good scrappy player with a good attitude. He likes it rough (basketball that is) and he plays hard. Do I think he will make it in the league? Possibly. Do I think we should draft him? Possibly. Fizer? I have watched every Big XII game I could this year on the satellite dish. He is good, really good. I am not sure who was watching, or what you all were watching, but Fizer can play. He is smart, strong, and has a good offensive game. I am not sure I have ever seen him get pushed around too much. But you have to remember, defenses are keying on this guy. They are putting two bodies on him to box him out. He is strong, but not that strong. I don't care to get into the issue of height. He may be 6'6", he may be 6'8", whatever. He is explosive, goes to the hoop hard, and was the best player in the Big XII, bar none. At stats of 25.7 ppg and 7.9 rpg....I say he has the ability to dominate at the college level. I have seen him do it. I also have seen moves....he can play with his back to the basket and also is just as comfortable taking you outside and facing up. He can hit threes, and passes well from the post. I gotta ask, what were you all watching this year? I was watching Fizer. He will come in and contribute right away. Reminds me of Gary Trent. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!
haven- you may have seen terrance morris "completely takeover" a game this year, but that's not the player that I've watched this year. I don't think Mason is even going to be picked in the first half of round 1, but OSU's game against UT in Stillwater qualifies as "taking over" a game. He scored 30+ pts and a pretty decent defensive club like the Longhorns couldn't defend him. As for Courtney Alexander, he's a gunner with no conscience and I'm not sure about his ability to play a team oriented game at all, but Fresno State's first round opponent was not a "weak" team. Last I checked, Wisconsin is going to the Final Four. Granted, nobody thought much about the Badgers before the tournament started, but I think we all have to agree that they've turned into a pretty decent opponent. But back to Morris, I posted a my opinion on him on the Lottery board, so I just copied it: I don't want to get the rep as a negative guy who runs down all the players that people like, but I'll share my opinion concerning Terrance Morris. He's not coming out, so this may be a pointless discussion, but he is being mentioned. Anyway, Morris really began to develop his reputation last year on a very good Maryland team. He was an excellent compliment to Francis, Ekezie, Profit, etc. Everybody expected him to step it up this year and become the man. Well, Maryland's season has ended and it would be legitimate to say that Morris was, like, the 3rd best player on his team. Dixon and Baxter were both better this year, as indicated by first team all-acc selections. Morris was a second teamer. Now, I've heard that one of Morris's strengths is that he doesn't force his game, but lets the game come to him. It has been suggested that he plays under control and has versatile skills that allow him to be a force in a number of different areas. IF this is true, Morris would be like a James Worthy clone. But I just don't see it. In my book, all this talk of Morris playing under control is simply a way to spin the fact that he's a passive player who hasn't shown the capacity to be a star. I don't dispute the skills that Morris is supposed to have, but I think the mental toughness to lead and dominate isn't there. If I were to make a comparision between him and a current NBA player, I'd say that he reminds me alot of Robert Horry. Even if he was coming out this year and even with the Rockets' need of a SF, I would not be excited to take him. ------------------
Haven, Now I really have to discount your opinion about Fizer due to what you said about Carrawell: _____________________________________________ Carrawell really hasn't impressed me. He doesn't handle the ball very well, doesn't seem to have great moves (or create his own shot), lacks speed, and doesn't even have a great shot. _____________________________________________ That is fine that he hasn't impressed you, but Carrawell's STRENGTHS are creating his own shot, penetrating, moving without the ball, and have you seen his shooting percentages?? Apparently not. FG% - .490 3FG% - .380 For a two guard, that is pretty solid. And all the while averaging 17 ppg on a deep Duke squad. Add this, at 6'6", he is the second leading rebounder on the team. I am not saying we draft him, just disagreeing. You obviously have not watched too much college basketball this year. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!
Mason can score sometimes, but I don't see him really "dominating." There are players who can score 30, without really being the reason why their team is winning. Mason seems to be one of those to me. You're right, Morris does remind me a bit of Robert Horry... with more talent. Let's not forget that Horry was instrumental in Houston's two championship runs. What he's done after, should not negate that. Morris may never develop a competitive spirit... but then again, he might. He has the tools to become a very, very good small forward, and I'd rather draft a player like that any day, than one with the heart, but no talent. I know that many people on this board don't feel that way... but desire can be born, talent can be refined, but not simply created this late. It's fun to cheer for players like Najera, I just don't want them on my team. Hoop-T: I've watched a great deal of college ball... more than I normally would, as the Rockets aren't televised much in Boston. Duke happens to be my 2nd favorite college team, so you really picked the wrong player to argue about. I've followed them extensively this season. Carrawell isn't a bad player... but in case you haven't noticed, he certainly can't create his shot well when defenses are concentrating on him. Did you see him in that game against Florida, for instance? Even Kansas? When those teams needed to stop him, they did, for the most part. They couldn't stop Battier to the same extent. I like Carrawell, but I don't think he will ever be a premier player. Remember, Duke players often have gaudy percentages due to the quality of their system, and teammates. Let's not forget certain Duke players drafted far higher than they should have been... Alright, now to address your ad hominems. I find it sort of offensive that you'd imply I've seen so little of the college game. Remember, an ad hominem is the single weakest form of arguement possible. Furthermore, your statement that you can disregard my claims about Fizer because of my opinions about Carrawell is absurd. Arguements should ALWAYS be addressed in a vacuum, without considering the opposition. In other words, whether Rudy T is making a claim, or your 6 year old sister is irrelevent to the internal framework of their position. The nature of the person talking doesn't make his claims more or less true. I don't respect many of the opinions you've posited on this board... but I'm not going to allow myself to discount your future statements accordingly. That, makes debate into a farce. Please don't make assumptions that you neither know about, nor take the time to adequately account for. ------------------
Haven, Again, total disagreement from me. If we were arguing about my six year old sister and Rudy T making a claim, as you said, then yes, you would have a point. But you have stated opinions about two basketball players, both of which I disagree with. So the relevance here is that I am inferring that not only have you watched little NCAA ball, but I am also inferring that you may not be the best assessor of talent. The situational aspect of these arguments are on the same playing field (no pun intended). Carrawell, for four solid years has been creating his own shot and shooting well from the arc. The stats say it, the results of the team say it, and WATCHING HIM PLAY says it. The same goes for Fizer. I am just not sure what you could be watching when you make these claims. The fact that you cite the Florida game and the Kansas game is inconclusive. He had a couple of bad games. He has had more than that in his college career. Who are you proposing we draft anyway? Has this player ever had any bad games? Well then the same can be said for him, whomever he may be. The fact that you can't recognize Carrawell's obvious strengths is peculiar then, after you say you have been watching and you follow Duke. On a different note, it is fine if you do not respect very many, if any, posts that I have written here. It matters not to me. After all, that is why we are all here isn't it...to discuss, to debate, to talk about "homer" stats and our favorite teams? My opinion is simply that. Maybe I should not have used the words I did in response to your previous post. I apologize for that. But I will not apologize for disagreeing. Now, with that having been said....a bit of advice: Practice what you preach. No hard feelings. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!
Oh, and I never said Carrawell would or should be drafted high, nor did I say he would be a premier player. Just wanted to make that clear. ------------------ HOOP-T Hey Shaq, Acme called, and they want their bricks back!
Hoop-T: No hard feelings at all. Your posts are actually peculiar to me: I tend to either completely disagree, or completely agree. The issue of Carrawell is interesting, but I really don't see where he's consistently managed to create his own shot against talented defense. He was pretty much subsumed to other Dukies the first 3 years of his career, but this year... he's managed to break out. He has a nice jump shot-but 38% from the 3 point line in college, is not spectacular. Isn't Battier like a 43% 3pt shooter, or something like that? I think that perhaps you misinterpreted my remarks about Carrawell. I'm not arguing that he's not talented, I'm arguing that Morris and Mo Peterson are more talented. Carrawell was proposed as a suitable alternative. I think he lacks their athleticism, doesn't really shoot much better, and creates less. About my abilities at assessing talent... I don't think I'm qualified to be a scout, but I don't believe I'm devoid of the ability either. Perhaps it's just personal preference. From what you've said, you seem to like blue collar players a great deal more than I do... that may be our primary difference (Mason, Carrawell, etc). I tend to emphasize athleticism and grace, more. To me, Carrawell is a low first round, high second round pick. Fizer should be upper-middle first round, imo. Mason, I wouldn't pick until well into the 2nd round. Anyway, sorry if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to do so. ------------------ [This message has been edited by haven (edited March 28, 2000).]
Haven, I think you may be underestimating the influence of Mo Pete's team on his performance. He has one of the best assist men in college ball setting him up not to mention a team with other 3 point shooters and plenty of big bodies setting picks for him. I am usually seeing him getting an uncontested shot off. I am not yet convinced he can create his own shot much better than Carrawell or Mason can (I think probably all three are good at it, but none IMO are in the JR Rider or Rip Hamilton’s class in doing this, the latter of whom seems to be struggling with the NBA transition). Further, Mo’s overall shooting #'s as well as just about all other stats are certainly are no better than Carrawell or Mason, and certainly inferior to Battier's who plays on an even less talented and well-rounded team. Again though, I like Mo Pete, and he is showing himself clutch right now (though he didn't get his team past Duke last year and had to be prodded by Cleaves in mid-season to take charge). But given I don't think there is that much difference between him from others in a very deep position in the upcoming draft, plus the fact we have a very similar player in SA, I would question the wisdom of using a 5ish pick on him. If we have that good a pick I would rather trade down if a comparable skilled player to Mo Pete only bigger isn't available. Also, I think you may be right about Mason, but way, way off with Fizer. He is clearly more athletically gifted than KT or the Big Nasty, the latter of who was what like a 9 pick?? He will probably go top 4 with no lower than wherever Corliss Williamson was drafted. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited March 28, 2000).]
