Kelly Iko: The Rockets are not interested in breaking up their core for Giannis Antetokounmpo

Yeah, these young players seldom blow up the league from the get-go. Last season so many posters here were taking a shizzle-nit on our "bust" Amen Thompson. Now, if some team approached us wanting to get him for themselves, I'd be like that dog gnawing a bone between its front paws, growling or snapping at someone who might reach to take it away: "You don't need this...." "Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrr....."

 

No we don't. Who on our team has been remotely consistent? Who on our team can carry the offense when things aren't working?

 

Sengun.

 

He's not a star. Good player, but not a star. This season he's been incredibly inefficient for an inside player.

 

Man these takes are going to age worse than Embiid

 

Based on what?

You used to be a poster who had a good understanding of stats.

Now you are cherry-picking one stat from 15 games to affirm your bias, when he has considerably improved on defense.

He is being double- and triple-teamed constantly and playing unselfishly. His finishing has been a bit off, but that will come back - he has been doing what's needed to help the team win, in limited minutes.

 

Sengun is no. 13 in PER (nba.com), no. 8 in net rating (nba.com), no. 10 in def rating (nba.com), no. 7 in PIE (nba.com), no. 8 in VORP (Stathead), no. 8 in BPM (Stathead), no. 6 in DPBM (Stathead), no. 3 in DWS (Stathead), no. 5 in DRtg (Stathead), no. 9 in rebounds/game (nba.com), no. 6 in screen assists (nba.com), no. 10 in contested shots (nba.com), no. 2 in box outs (nba.com), etc. etc.

All of that is among all players in the entire NBA, and with significantly fewer minutes than most of the players ranked above or near him in these categories.

He also has the second best on/off rating behind Dillon Brooks (cleaningtheglass.com), second best net rating (pbpstats, cleaningtheglass, nba.com) on the team behind Dillon Brooks, etc. etc. etc.

Again, his minutes and shots have been down this season so far, and his finishing around the rim has been uncharacteristically off in the first 16 games, so his scoring and TS % is somewhat down compared to last season, which I expect to recover, but overall, his impact cannot seriously be denied, unless someone has a serious bias.

"Not a star".

 

People are pretty loose with the term "star" and it's ambiguous. But I think he's referring to a superstar. I would break stars into 3 different tiers. You have superstars (think first team all nba, mvp conversation, etc), then you have allstars (all star starters, 2nd team all nba and below), and then low tier stars (all star backups or maybe low end starters). Tier 1 stars are guys like Luka, Giannis, Shai, Jokic, Tatum, Curry, etc. Tier 2 stars would be guys like Davis, Ant, Brunson, Kyrie, Ja, Booker etc. And then Tier 3 would be guys like Sabonis, Siakam, Fox, Bam, Randle. Obviously I left some guys off here, I just listed some examples off the top of my head to hopefully get the point across.

Given these general tiers that I've laid out, I think he's saying we need a tier 1 guy. Where do you think Sengun is this season? What tier would you put him in? Which group of guys does he fit into?

 

Tier 3 for now.

 

Yeah I agree, that's the point I'm trying to make. Even the biggest fans could only put him as high as tier 2. There is zero argument to put him in tier 1.

 

But he is young he is young and works on his game every year. But now he is tier 3.

 

Why would you have Ant, Brunson, Ja, Booker listed above him at this point?

They are averaging more minutes and points this season so far, yes. All the advanced stats favour Sengun, by far. And that's despite his shot having been off.

He has become a real two-way player.

Casuals underrate that.

 

I'm judging them off more than just the 15 games this season. I don't think the 9 games Ja played mean that he's fallen off a cliff. It's more likely to me that he's the same player that he was for the last 3 years. Similar with the knicks, Brunson led that team to 50 wins and a nice playoff run, scoring nearly 30 points on 60% TS. Also I dont think BPM is a very good stat.

Regardless, this isn't about me. I'm asking where you think Sengun belongs? I think my tiers are pretty well explained, if you want to bump some guys up or down between 2 and 3 that's fine with me, it's based on your own personal opinion. Do you think Sengun is a tier 1 player?

 

Ja didn't even really play last year.

I think Sengun is already a tier 1 player when you look at the overall impact (I posted some of the advanced stats).

However, to be really considered in that category in public perception, he needs to level up his finishing/shooting and get to something like 25 ppg, he would need to be more empowered/featured by the Rockets, which isn't happening (yet - and I am ok with it, as long as we are winning), he will need to step it up in the playoffs and truly lead the team to get more recognition.

It will come.

 

BTW, in terms of real impact on winning so far this season, I think this is a pretty reasonable ranked list.

 

And I think people still don't realize what a crazy jump Alpi made this season in terms of his defense contribution. They key in on his TS % having gone down a bit, but goodness, the guy has stepped up his defensive effort like crazy! No wonder he is a bit more exhausted on offense...but it will all come together.

 

In fact they have 2 physical specimens in little Giannises in Tari and Amen already.

 

He's not being triple teamed constantly. He's not even double teamed the majority of the time.

He's a good player. Career high scoring average of 21. He's a good but not great passer. That doesn't make him a star.

Obviously, the definition of star is subjective but I think most people think of stars as being the elite players in the league. Sengun isn't there yet.

Realistically, what is he? The 6th best center in the Western Conference? Jokic, AD, Wemby, Holmgren and Sabonis are all ahead of him.

What elite skill does he have? Scoring, passing and rebounding he's good but not elite. Defensively he's improved but he's still not a great defender. What has he done to be considered a star?

He's still young, give him time to develop. So far this year, he's taken a step back.

 

Not the OP, but I would put Sengun in tier 3 by your definition. I expect he will be on the borderline of tier 1/2 for most of his contract extension.

 

Opposed to last year, you are somewhat right that this year Udoka has the team success as the Number 1 goal.

And other than our defensive outliers Amen and Tari, every other game there is a different player or 'star' picking it up.

• I have not watched Sabonis this year but Sabonis' stats of 20 and 12 are attainable.
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• Wemby is load managed and Chet will be out for 3 months......so yeah, Sengün should be above them due to availability.

I think his star move is more like he is stretchable and durable for a big man.

And his post up is always elite. HIs passing is after Joker and Hartenstein, probably 3rd or 2nd best among Cs.