It's not always defending people with the ball and Kawhi isn't guarding LBJ 100% but you'll have to see the denial defense Kawhi had done against LBJ. "Leonard's defense on James in the series was key. James shot 57.6 percent against him, but he wasn't always able to get his shot off or even get the ball. - 19 percent of James' touches against Leonard in the Finals resulted in a James field goal attempt. Against all other defenders, that rate jumped to 33 percent. - James was held without a touch on 33 percent of the Heat's possessions when he was guarded by Leonard. Against all other defenders, he was held without a touch 23 percent of the time. - When Leonard did find himself on someone other than James, his defense was still strong. The rest of the Heat shot 27.8 percent (5-of-18) against Leonard in the Finals."
Oh, and when you're guarding the arguably best player in the planet, just limiting him from reaching his full potential is enough...
There is no Harden or Kawhi You go for Harden and Kawhi or a lesser Kawhi Ariza Harden and Kawhi or Harden, Ariza Offense and Defense compensation
If Harden would play D, OP's question would not even come up. Also, we'd be celebrating another championship now.
I don't know why I'm surprised by this thread but I am. Leonard is a nice player with a bright future but he hasn't been outstanding on a regular basis. The first two games in the finals he was nothing special, and his series vs OKC and Dallas weren't eye popping either. He's in a completely different system with clearly more experienced coaching, and he's surrounded by other very good players. Making a one on one comparison with Harden just isn't an accurate test. As someone mentioned earlier, if they swapped places do you think Leonard could carry a team as the offensive focal point? IMO it's way too early to tell. If Duncan, Parken and Ginobli retire and Leonard becomes the go to guy we'll find out.
at this point, i would pick leonard. harden's offense prowess is without a doubt superior, but we all know defense isn't his strong point. leonard gives you a decent offense, but i think his athleticism can make up for it when the time calls for it. his defense is top notch and i think it's a game changer. in the playoff season, i felt like harden disappeared in 2 of the games. we got no offense out of him, and obviously having him on the floor became a liability. leonard showed up for the big time when it mattered, hence the playoff MVP. if i were to give harden a 5 for offense and 1 for defense, i would give leonard 3 for offense and 5 for defense.
Do you idiots realize that Kawhi averaged TWELVE points per game in the regular season? He plays a few good games (the first time he HAS EVER scored 20 in 3 consecutive games IN HIS CAREER) and you guys go ape s***. Kawhi is not half the player Harden is and his defense is grossly overrated. Lebron nearly shot 60% from the field and averaged 28 ppg this series. You guys voting for Kawhi are absurd, this is not even a legitimate conversation; Harden finished 5th in MVP voting for a damn reason and y'all need to respect that. Kawhi is a solid player, but he in NO way is near the player Harden is.
this is an incredibly stupid thread an here's why: kawhi is good player. yes. but he is largely a product of the spurs system. he developed into the player he is because of the spurs and the system around him. this thread would never have occurred had the, say, kings drafted kawhi. Had SAC draft kawhi, he would of developed completely differently--playing a completely different role in a rebuilding squad. instead, he had pop to groom him and slowly fit him in games in situations that he would succeed in. kawhi is a hell of a player. and he will be for a long time. but james harden is the far superior better player. its not even a comparison. kawhi has a better (infinitely better) coach and system than anything harden has ever had. i dont think kawhi would blow up like harden did, id kawhi was thrust into a central role like harden was.
Kawhi is not just a product of the Spurs system. He is a human being and had existed for 20 years before he was ever a Spur. His mental and physical attributes were well developed during these 20 years. Kawhi is a smart, high character, high effort and physically gifted player who worked his butt off both before and after being drafted by the Spurs to become the Finals MVP. The Spurs didn't get some clump of clay and used their "system" to mold him into what they want. They got a talented young man whose gifts and character fit into what they want to achieve. Plenty of players have come through the Spurs "system" and failed to achieve close to what Kawhi did-- the youngest Finals MVP since Magic Johnson. Kawhi is no more a product of the Spurs system than Harden is a product of the Rockets system. Teams and "system" matter but so does the human being in the uniform.
I concede that Kawhi is a human being, and that he has existed for 20 years prior to becoming a Spur. He is clearly a Spur type of player because the attributes you mentioned. I'm not downplaying these attributes. Kawhi is a smart, hard-working, humble, and TALENTED basketball player. The fact that he doesn't love strip clubs more than basketball is also a plus. But, James Harden is still the better pure basketball player. Harden is no slump when it comes to basketball IQ. Hardens a better passer than Kawhi, a better scorer, their shooting is even, though I'd give Harden a slight nod. Yes, Kawhi is a winner. And he stepped up better than Harden ever has on a stage that big. But cmon...Kawhi is playing with 3 hall of famers and arguably the best coach in all of sports the past 15 years (disclaimer: I dont even think its an argument). He is who he is, and you're a fool if you think he reaches this peak, this early, under bill dolan or some other joke. Kawhi had an incredibly tough past...and he is a tredendous player and talent. But he should thank the sweet lord he fell to the 15th slot whereby the Spurs could get him. And I stand firm in that he is, because of the qualities you mentioned, a Spurs-type player. Not incredible as a prospect...Not off the chart athletic...just like Ginobili in the 2nd, Parker at 26, Kawhi at 15...the team is built off misfits. By your logic, Parker, Ginobili et. al. should have been top 3 picks in their years. And that may be. But the Spurs work with non-highly-valued-misfits (Green, Mills, Splitter, washed-up-Diaw, etc...) seems to indicate that its the SPURS making their players better rather than the players getting all the credit. So--on a player on player analysis, this comparison wouldnt even be a thread if Kawhi was currently a Pelican, King, or god forbid...a Knick.
Teams matter, of course. But they matter for Kawhi and they matter for other guys, too. What would Harden have been had he been drafted by the Kings during the last years of the Maloof's ownership or if his first teammates were Raymond Felton and JR Smith or Jordan Crawford, Swaggy P and Andre Blatche during their Wizards days?
Whoever has the best game most recently is the best player in the world. Carl is banking on the idiocy of a good portion of sports fans to troll. It could have been anyone.... anyone... even Matt Bonner if he would have had been raining threes in the finals and won the MVP (or maybe he wouldn't even have to) and Carl would create a thread to troll Harden fans into taking his bait into some ridiculous comparison debate. Debate this guy if you want to, but if you say the sky is blue, he'll argue about the spectrum of light coming from out of space creating an optical illusion. Just ignore and move on.
Kawhi is a great player in a Spurs system. He fits that team and system perfectly. But if you put him on bad teams with no direction, then he'll be an average player with great rebounding ability and defensive skills. Harden on the other hand is a star and can be a star on any team. Harden doesn't need a system to put up great numbers. He's playing for this Rockets team with no system and no plays and he's putting up 25 and 6
