Well I will give you props for at least drinking beer from Munchen - I would hope to god you are drinking Spaten Optimator (the dark kind)--- but you are probably not because you would be totally floored, and so would I - but anyway, just drink and appreciate the grassy, wheaty goodness of a glass or glasses of Spaten Lager, and the crossed shovels, of course. For that...a temporary truce is worth it. As long as good beer has been spread, I have done my duty.
Few things to end the debate. WEst wasn't as competitive before JVG got here. JVG gave the Rockets a shot to win in the playoffs every year we went there. Look at his playoff record. He's well respected because he coaches playoff basketball and prepares his teams for the playoffs. If you ask me, all his teams have overachieved in the playoffs. The Rockets had no business taking the Mavs to 7 games 3 years ago. They had no business almost beating the deep Jazz with the injuries and roster they had. Same with the lakers in 04. They almost won that series. THey were a Jim Jackson 3 and Karl Malone tech away from taking that series. CD tried, I'll give him that, but he failed. Morey's already done more than him in one offseason. CD has yet to win a legitimate playoff series as GM. Pretty sad if you ask me. Blame JVG all you want, but he couldn't even assemble a decent roster with Rudy. Signing Mo Taylor, Kelvin Cato, and Moochie Norris to All Star contracts surely is not the answer. JVG quit in NY b/c of personal problems. They were going through a change in ownership, and his best friend died in 9/11. He wanted to get out of the city. WHen he quit, the Knicks were over .500. They've been over .500 only once since. Watch the Orlando Magic this year. They have JVG's coaching staff and JVGs brother running the helms. Same defensive strategy, same player development, same old Pat Riley offense, just a better, much more talented and deeper team than what JVG had hear in Houston, in a weaker conference. I expect Orlando and Boston (who has JVG's top assistant) to duke it out in the Eastern Conference FInals (I expect Boston to win because they have more firepower), and then Boston to win it all because of Thibodeau's defense.
I was sort of following the Knicks in 2001-2, and while he did leave the Knicks with a winning record (19-10), it was pretty clear that the team wasn't going to do much that season. It was a team that had already peaked and was on a serious decline. There may have been other elements to JVG's decision as you say, but it always seemed to me that he picked the right time for him careerwise to jump ship. He got to say that he left the team on a high note, while not having to take responsibility for the chaos that followed. (They ended the season last in their division.) I like JVG enough, but for me, that wasn't one of his shining moments.
Spoiler What? He was a complete and utter FAILURE in the playoffs, his teams blew 2-0 series leads....not once....but TWICE !!! They should have beaten the Jazz this year with homecourt advantage. Didn't you get tired of having Yao try to cover the high pick and roll with Boozer and Williams? I mean the entire planet could see that JVG needed to make an adjustment for that play, but over 7 games all he said was "Yao has to play it better" WTF !!!!! Hey BALDY !!! He can't....he was coming off an injury, and is slow to begin with, here is an idea...try to help your player by having a plan B..... The West has been the dominant conference for years...Quit apologizing for him, he didn't get the job done, and even he admitted it. Don't forget the Tmac trade, or bringing in veteran players that JVG liked...David Wesley Jon Barry, basically remaking that team on the fly. And, CD is still involved in the decisions today, Morey talks about having him still helping so he at least gets partial credit for this years team as well. ROFLMAO !!! Isn't this the same kind of thing that he criticized V-Span for? So now you are saying he is a massive hypocrit....got it. Spoiler Like I said, he saw the team was on the decline and left, he quit....that is what quitters do, they quit...when the going gets tough....JVG quits....nice. JVG has nothing to do with either of those teams, this could not be more irrelevant. Take off your "JVG bought me tickets" rose colored glasses Orange Spoiler and you and Donkey can stop giving each other back rubs......JVG may not have been the only problem on the Rockets last year, but he was clearly one of the biggest. Blender, I may be mistaken but I believe when JVG quit the Knicks they were 10-9.....IIRC. And Sam Fisher.....no hangover, love that beer....YUM !!! DD
No, he criticized "V-Span" for achieving nothing in this league and complaining about not getting minutes he was supposely promised. Vagina Spanoulis didn't want to do what it takes to become a decent NBA player. They wanted him to improve his shot, he complained about not having the ball in his hands more whne his turnover rate doesn't justify giving him the ball instead of, say, giving McGrady the ball.
Different argument - different thread - Spoiler but I was refering to V-Span wanting to go home to Greece, loads of parallels in JVG quitting and V-Span quitting.
No. JVG criticized VSpan for not working hard enough and thinking he was some superstar player and deserved playing time right away. VSpan quit the NBA because he missed home. JVG quit for professional reasons, and his best friend dying in the WTC was black icing on the bitter cake.
Exactly. There has been plenty of players who Van Gundy (and other coaches) originally didn't think he had any use for but earned their minutes later on. Chuck Hayes got cut. Juwan Howard got told he wasn't going to be in the rotation. JVG wandered about whether Luther Head, as a "midget," would be in the rotation when he got drafted. Even when Mutombo first got traded to Houston, JVG doubted him. When Dikembe said he would teach Yao some stuff in practice, I remember JVG recalling Yao having a good offensive game vs. Dikembe the year before and joked maybe beating Dikembe every pratice would help Yao's confidence more than anything. All these guys worked themselves into the rotation. Spanoulis, on the other hand, never earned anything, was inconsistent when given minutes, and just complained about not getting "guaranteed" minutes people who did work hard and who did contribute. Van Gundy wouldn't be the only coach who refuse to put up with this crap.
You say tomato, I say tomato.....similiarities abound. Either way, they both quit for personal reasons, right? At least we can agree upon that, hopefully. DD
V-Span tired argument .....number 37.... Spoiler Look, no doubt that JVG and V-Span and CD all had their wires crossed, I don't blame JVG for playing who he thought would help him win in a contract year. I do blame CD for not forcing the issue as it was clear the team was not going to be a legitimate contender, CD should have told Jeff to give him some minutes, like Colangelo did about Bagnani in Toronto. Billy could develop into a very good NBA PG, he has a lot of skills that translate very well to the NBA game, he does turn the ball over a lot, and that would have to be rectified, but he was the 2nd best passer on the team and the best at running the PnR.....those are things that should and could have been utilized with playing time at the PROPER position, not sticking him out there on the perimeter. JVG's system is too rigid, it is not like Popovich who utilizes Manu and Parker into a similar system.....which was bad for Billy. As for Billy, his crying to the press was inexcusable, it was weenified, but if he felt the organization lied to him, and wanted out, you can't blame him for working hard to get his way....which he did, and got more money to boot. The bottom line is that CD wanted Billy, JVG did not.....they probably should have held off a year to bring him over. That way if JVG got an extension he would feel more secure developing players, or if he was gone, then a new coach would also have a longer contract and Billy would have gotten more chances. It boggles my mind that people say he sucked, he didn't.....at least not in all games, there were flashes of stellar play, the Washington game had JVG slobbering all over his knob for how good he played. I contend that given consistent playing time, Billy would have developed into a quality NBA player, and probably still will in 2 or 3 years when he comes back. At the end of the day, it was a square peg in a round hole situation for both JVG and V-Span, and I blame CD for that, he was the GM, he should have been more clear to both parties. DD
When did JVG criticize Spanoulis for quitting the team? I think he would have welcomed it, actually. Not giving your full effort and looking to improve on your deficiencies while under contract is another matter. Surely, you're not claiming that JVG didn't give his full effort as a coach, right? I think one thing even his detractors can agree on is that JVG worked his ass off and was fully committed to doing the best job he could. I don't see the hypocrisy.
No, I totally agree with you, he did the best job that he could do. I have no issue with that, he has an amazing work ethic. I just think his deficencies outweigh his work ethic. As for the topic, JVG quit on the Knicks for personal reasons, as Span quit on the Rockets for personal issues. Both are quitters in my book. DD
Spoiler Are you kidding me? We had a winning pct. of .760 with both Yao and Tracy in the lineup. We had the 4th best record in the NBA. Dallas got ousted in Round 1. We beat SA twice, once without Yao, and another time without Tracy. We wouldn't have had to play Phoenix until the Conference FInals (and they didn't even make it). And you're saying it was clear we weren't a legitimate contender last year? Tomfoolery! You were the one saying we had a chance at winning it all in April, if I'm not mistaken. With Yao out, we had to win every game. We didn't have time to experiment with stupid rookies, unlike Toronto, who was in the ****tiest division in professional sports. Give JVG Manu and Parker and watch what he can do. I don't consider Alston and Head: Manu/Parker. And VSpan surely ain't no Parker. JVG's team last year was TMac/Yao and a bunch of 3rd stringers. JVG was given 2 extensions over the course of the season. He didn't sign. He could care less about his contract status. All he wanted to do was win.
What? Have you been paying attention this offseason? Because Morey and Les etc have talked EXTENSIVELY about the talent gap between the Rockets and the top tiered teams. And I have been saying ALL year the team was not good enough to win, which is why I wanted V-Span to get some developmental time....there are pages and pages of posts backing me up on this....unfortunatly. Spoiler So what if we beat up on the dregs of the league? This is where statistics are skewed in any argument, what was the winning percentage of the opponents during this alleged .760 winning percentage, what was the Rockets winning percentage with Yao and Tmac when the team played the better teams....that is more telling than just a blanket percentage. Spoiler There is NO WAY you can convince any sane person that JVG would have played a 19 year old Tony Parker straight out of the Euro league, much less start him, and if JVG had Manu, he would have lost all the rest of his hair watching all the high risk drives that Manu does where he turns the ball over...a LOT !.... Popovich is a superior coach because he realizes that high risk/high reward = championship..... I agree all he wants to do is win the next game, which is a questionable view to take, did you see Popovich's comments about his team being a veteran team and losing focus during the season, and how he could not expect them to play all year with intensity......that is a coach that understands the big picture. Spoiler JVG burns out his vets by trying to win every single game, admirable but at the end of the day, it is myopic and hurts his teams, not to mention his guys were exhausted. JVG can not see the forest through the trees.
That's fine. But unless JVG criticized Vspan for quitting the Rockets based on personal reason, the hypocrite label doesn't apply. Though I think you can rightly call out people for the double standard if they only want to bash one of them.
Jvg quit after years of putting his heart. into the Knicks and seeing front office being a joke. Spanoulis quit after a year because he did not get guaranteed minutes even after the team made changes and the new cast begged him to return. Big difference.
LOL - to you maybe, but with your original name being Van Gundier - I would think your opinion is skewed.....but to me they both quit for their own personal benefit, no difference. When the going got tough, they both bailed.....you can swing it any way you like, but it won't change the facts. They both quit because they were not getting their way...same bat time, same bat channel. Funny how it is always the front offices fault and not JVG's...isn't it? Even though the coach is part of the front office. Carl, maybe you can help explain it to me, what is it you like so much about JVG? I admire things about him but find him incredibly flawed, what do you see that makes you think he is a great coach?
Hard to imagine the thread titled "JVG to Warriors?" turning into a Rockets discussion/JVG bashing session. Veeeeery hard to believe.
