I don't know that saying he trusted them in that game so much as he just let them run because we were down so big. No use in letting Yao or Batt get hurt in a game that looked to be over. Like so many people here have commented.. the team wouldn't have a short bench if we were healthy. JVG is not going to play people just because we have injuries, that would defeat the whole purpose of stating you earn the time you get on the court. Have faith yall.. its ONE lost game. We are still playing well, yall need to have a little more trust in the team you're rooting for.
I hate to encourage the Van Gundy blamers, but this particular criticism of him is valid. He seems to have an absolute distinction in his head between practice (which is for development) and games (where minutes have to be earned in practice). The distinction is 95 percent right, but he's ignoring the other 5 percent.
this is like the 10th time you've brought up that lakers game. nothings changed. that game was over and the lakers scrubs layed down. end of story. if the lakers had kept the starters in, nothing would have happened. anyways, it wasn't the "smurfs" that brought the rockets back it was the hot shooting of mainly luther head and john lucas, who by the way are both regulars in the current rotation. to think that a lineup of those 2, novak and spanoulis are can be regularly counted on to compete against good nba teams is a joke and a really weak argument against jvg.
Uhm because we were down by thirty? if the shock troops come in and win the game for us its just gravy on the potatoes; conversely if we lose its valuable practice time for them against an actual team (albiet their bench scrubs) that is playing competitively instead of playing a scrimage as in a team practice. You cannot honestly expect JVG to put our scrubs in against the Dallas (currently the best team in the league) starters in a close game. if anyone honestly thinks that is a good idea then i have some ocean front property in arizona to sell you.
I think my point is being lost, because of last nights game. I am not talking about just last night but that by not developing players, JVG leaves us extremely susceptible to injuries, and by overworking players he helps bring on more injuries. Yes, I understand that we are not going to beat the Mavs without Yao etc....so play some of the bench let them get into the fire and get their feet wet and get comfortable. Can anyone honestly say we have seen enough of V-Span to know whether he can play PG or not? Considering that he has not been playing PG when he did play? But, this is not about V-Span this is about taking a LONGER view of the season, and NOT overworking your lone superstar player, when he already has a questionable back. Give the starters a rest, play smarter, don't burn out your team, the season is a marathon not a sprint. By playing only 6 guys 20 or more minutes JVG essentially will lose 2 games....last night versus the Mavs, and probably tonight vs the Suns because our starters will be dead tired at tip off. Not smart. DD
DD had watched more than a few Rockets games to make his points. He's not bi-polar, he says what he sees and not afraid of getting flamed. I'd like to add T-Mac is not JVG's only over-used victim. OZ ---------------------------------------------------- Boki... boki.....
Maybe JVG realized no matter how long his starters played they would be tired tonight against the suns cuz it was still a back to back and also the pace that they play. Last night he had to play the starters heavy minutes cuz we had a chance to win. Who here wouldnt take a win yesterday at the cost of a loss today. Do you really think the Rox would be expected to win tonight if Vspan and Novak each had 15 min last night? I think our better chance at victory was yesterday, and we didnt win. Big deal, we are still 11 games over .500
Yes exactly the 2004-05 Pistons that lost in the finals after getting there through an easy eastern Conference only played a 7 man rotation. Overworked teams do not win it all For comparison, the 2003-04 team that won it all played a 9 man rotation. Championship teams larger rotation JVG is burning out our starters......... Granted they are the only real servicable PROVEN NBA talent, but it is going to hurt us in the long run. And now Tmac is out because he has a sore lower back..... UGH !! DD PS....for whomever commented about me saying the bench only plays 20% of the game that is consistent with what I have been saying.....the Bench does not win or lose games generally, but NOT playing the bench does.
I already did. That's why I used them as an example. http://www.nba.com/pistons/stats/2004/index.html The fewest minutes of any starter in the regular season was Rasheed at 34. The most minutes for any bench player was McDyess at 23.3 - as per your criteria, he was the only bench player playing 20+ mpg (so 6 guys total). Arroyo and Delfino only played partial seasons (40 and 30 games respectively), and averaged around 15 minutes. Lindsey Hunter also did about 15 minutes a game. http://www.nba.com/pistons/stats/2004/playoffs_stats.html In the playoffs, the rotations got even tighter. In fact, NO bench player on the team averaged 20 minutes (McDyess was at 19.8). 4 of 5 starters averaged 39+ minutes a game (Hamilton was at 43), while Rasheed was the exception with the fewest at 33. And again, that Detroit team had 2-3 players (Darko, Delfino, probably Arroyo) with pedigrees and expectations much exceeding those of Spanoulis/Novak et. al. The amazing thing about those Pistons was their avoidance of injury. I think you'd see a much more balanced team if we didn't have the fluke injuries to Snyder/Yao, the whole Bonzi situation and then chronic ones from TMac.
Yes, but during the regular season they had 11 guys averaging 10 minutes a game thus they were not completely burned out come playoff time, but still did not have enough in their tank to win it all....nor a bench that was trusted by Larry Brown to hold the fort... Now granted not all 11 of them played all year with the team, but enough of them played to let the starters rest.....DURING THE REGULAR season. DD
LoL. I don't even know what to say...that team made it through the playoffs without a single bench player averaging 15 mpg, 3 starters averaging 38+ mpg, and the other 2 averaging ~35...if you think guys averaging 9 mpg make them a significant part of the rotation (but JL3 last night wasn't?)...I dunno what to say. Arroyo, Delfino, and Parker all played less than half the season. Dupree played all of 47 games. By that metric, we have 10 guys averaging 10 minutes a game, and 3 more averaging 8.8 plus. http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=hou And to put that in perspective. The guy you are screaming to play more is on pace to play around 37 games - a lot more than Smush Parker did, and similar to what Arroyo and Delfino did.
Look I am not saying play the bench a LOT of minutes.....you are missing the point...I am saying play them SOME minutes, especially before TV timeouts, and before Quarter changes to give the starters EXTRA rest. Playing Bonzi or Synder 10 minutes each will give Tmac and Battier 10 more minutes of rest. And Vpan could do the same for Rafer..... DD
I think Novak and Padgett could afford some consistent minutes on the floor. I would like to see what they're able to produce in 12-14 minutes per game, and I think their shooting ability at the big spots can present many mismatch problems. Lucas is fine for when we need an injection of energy, although he doesn't pass nor make those around him better. V-Span doesnt do much of anything except turn the ball over and make the occassional nice pass on a break. He's about 2 years away from being a solid backup, and about 3-4 years away from being a legit backcourt starter. I really wish JVG would stop trusting Hayes so much, and since many teams go small anyway, Novak and Padge would work well. Between them, that's probably an extra 3-4 treys per game, which is 9 points that we aren't getting from anyone else.
I just wanted to say that I can agree with some of Clutch's beef with you (and vice versa), but the user title is totally unnecessary. Thanks for handling the whole thing like a man, and thanks for sticking around. For the most part, your posts are indisputably high in quality, and they would have been missed if you had taken the low road.
Hey don't be talking about my man like that... Really though, I am in agreement with DD on this one. DD might be reactionary, but this is on the money. The problem here is JVG is such a great coach in many ways, but carries obvious flaws that are apparent to most casual observers. Its almost like how geniuses often lack common sense in simple things. I don't know about replacing VG, because I don't know if there is a better coach out there. However, that doesn't mean it's not frustrating to watch players struggle with him either (Vspan, Bonzi, Novak).
Fuzzy nicely said about JVG. I agree with DD. It's not like I started watching JVG two days ago and just had my hemorrhoids flare up and decided to take it out on the guy. He is consistent over his career and his time here with the Rockets to the point of robbing all of the joy out of watching this team play. This team does not play loose like they enjoy the game. They play tight like they are constipated. I have an old acquaintance who was just fired as President of an organization. He kept having personnel problems with lots of people for more than a few years, but it was always the other peoples problems. Now he just had almost a year of problems with his Office Manager and his Board and he tried to say it was everyone's fault but his. Now he is gone. JVG keeps doing things the same way and has personnel problems with a few more people - Bonzi, Vspan, who is next? But I think Les, CD and Morey need to send him a strong message - it is time to stop having relationship problems with his players and learn how to listen, develop players, and take a longer view than just winning the next game. He's not yet Riley or Phil. He is a good coach with a few major flaws who could work on himself and improve his working relationship with his management, his team and his fanbase. When the team sent us to Miami and after defeating the Heat we had a postgame rally in the arena and everyone was there except for Van Gundy. The guy just does not enjoy himself, enjoy his team, enjoy the game or the fans. This makes it hard for me to enjoy this team and the games, being around a guy who is so - put your own tag on it - so whatever. I was really disappointed, perhaps even hurt he could not attend the rally and say a few words to us.
IMO, the severely shortened rotation at this point has to do with injuries and not JVG's preferences. Maybe statistics will prove me wrong, but JVG seems to be going much more to his bench this year than usual. When healthy, he's giving minutes to nine guys: T-Mac Yao Rafer Battier Hayes Head JHo Mutombo Snyder Add to that the fact that if Bonzi had been healthy, I'm positive he would be playing a big role from the bench, and that's 10 players. I left out JLIII because I don't think he would be getting much court time when everyone's healthy. But still, that's 10 players I believe JVG would utilize even IF (and that's a big if) everyone's healthy. In fact, the only guy who's not getting any time at all is V-Span.
Appreciate the kind words. Clutch and I just had a disagreement, no biggie. It was nothing personal. But thanks for the compliment
