Ah yes. But then you are taking about the SCOUTS (GM and coach too) that pick those players (also talent scouts overseas). Which in turn *gives* those players over to their respective coaches for PT. Mery Xmas coach! We found a Josh Howard for ya! Scouting is a art as much as a science. I think what we were taking about was that *any* rookie that comes in should be developed into a "Cat Mobley" which is a fallacy. Now, regarding your list of good *late 1st and early 2nd rounders."* I ask you to put a list of late 1st round, early 2nd rounders that were BUSTS!
I would put the success rate of late firsters at about 30% (pure intuitive guesswork on my part) which presesnts a compelling argument for geting rid of a pick in any given year since that is not really very high. However when you do it for 3 consecutive years, the chances of you passing up somebody who was good rise accordingly (I think, plugging my arbitrary 30% number in, the % of finding a decent player over 3 years with 3 mid to late first rounders rises to about 60 something %).
I thought when you made a bet with somebody, you would be paying more attention with the information in the thread about that player. Coaches who is not afraid to take a chance on younger players? Don't need to look far, look at Dallas. Oh, yeah? so you'd rather play and start 20.9% hotshot veteran who is going to be cut? Who 7 tournovers in two games he started? Well, I actually wasn't arguing for AB to get more minutes. The point was, and is, JVG played veterans who sucked, which is a serious blow to your argument that he just doesn't play any players who's not good, as oppose to he trust a little bit more of veterans. Don't take me to endless arguments back and forth, which is time wasting. I thought you were smarter.
JVG played vets that sucked (old) because we don't have any rookies that are better than Sura; or comparable. Now, do you have any rookies in mind that we *have?* Gaines? Barret? Who?
Ahh, Nachbar's player development is what you are talking about. Yes, Byron Scott made him the man he was today, a backup small forward on the worst team in the league. The Hornets are lucky to have such a master player developer! I would really love to bring a guy like Byron who knows how to play his young talent and develop it, you know, and have them lose 3/4 of their games in the process. Of course, if scott had a healthy Jamal Mashburn and Lee Nailon and the Hornets had a chance of not being awful, the MASTER PLAYER DEVELOPER Byron Scott doesn't let him out of the locker room. JVG gave Barrett 22 minutes vs. Seattle, and gave Strickland 13. He gave Strickland 28 vs. SA and gave Barrett 12. Their season averages are an identical 12 minutes a game, each. So your argument that JVG hates rookies not only rests on the pillar that he doesn't play an undrafted rookie free agent point guard who can't shoot, it rests on the sliver of evidence that a rookie free agent point guard who can't shoot who is playing should play 5-6 more minutes a game, as compared to a veteran who can't shoot who is playing too many minutes. If that is waht you are hanging your hat on, that's pretty pathetically slim evidence. Not as pathetic as the fact that Barret hasn't scored a field goal since January 17th, but pathetic nonetheless
It's barrett, he somehow thinks Barrett is being ignored on the bench (even though he really has not been) and that this contradicts the fact that Van Gundy has never been provided with any legitimate young talent with which to play. Yeah, I can't wait till Barrett moves on and sticks it to us, LOL.
This whole back and forth argument is just silly. Yeah we don't have anything else to whine about? It is silly silly silly [sic] to continue belaboring an argument no one is bound to win especially this particular one. JVG is this - JVG is that. Who cares as long we continue to win and advance forward. JVG is a great oach - lets do away with these petty silliness. Lets just let this thread die (nothing against you Longtimefan - I am with you on this one anyway). Lets move on.
Fegwu, I kinda agree....buutttt.....I just can't agree whole-hardily with NOT discussing and/or debating about basketball. I wont post, unless I feel that a post deserves a reply. As do others towards me. That's the nature of all BBSes. It would be boring if we just all kept silent for fear of *rocking the boat?* I do not want to go back to the days where *all* critical comments were off limits. Dream34: "Horry can't dribble the ball to save his life!" I_love_the_Rox: "What?! You are NOT a true Rocket fan!" Fegwu, it's kinda like the people that say, "To love the American Democracy you must agree with the President and never debate!" Kinda defeating the purpose, huh? I'm sorry Feg. I can't go along with that. You almost had me there... If you silence the debates, you'll foster the extremist (Francis is a God, Yao can do no wrong, Dream is the best that ever lived, etc...). By the way, I know this is *just* about basketball. It's not like we're debating important things like politics or religion! LOL!
None is more pathetic than your attemp to massage stats to fit your argument. In the last two games, Barrett was given more minutes because if Strickland was to play more minutes, he would f---king die on the court!!! Now, let look at games they both serve as backups since Strickland played from Jan 20th excluding the last two. In 14 games, Rod played 155 minutes, with a 11m average, AB played what? 24 minutes with 1.7m average. Everyone knows, Rod plays ahead of ab. Yet you throw out 12m each garbage. I know you are a lawyer, but still... H0: JVG doesn't play rookies only because they sucked. H1: If a rookie and a veteran who equally sucked, JVG plays vet. H1+: JVG would likely take more chance with the Vet, it's not like he never plays anyone who sucked. QED (notice I never say he hates rookie, he gives them less of a chance. ) Yes, it's silly.
DavidS, oh I agree with you. I usually like most of the healthy debates we have here on a daily bases but there are some that are one is sure is not going anywhere one might as well pack it in. There is no harm when people disagree and profer their logic and opinions on why they choose certain stances but this one is an example of detractors just trying to find something to complain and whine about - it petty and somewhat unfortunate. If JVG does not develop rookies or young talent what will they say of Larry Brown and Philip? That is not a justification rather an aside. If a player is good enough and is proffesional enough he will see action in the great coaches like Brown, JVG, RudyT, etc teams. It is as simple as that. This is not the minor leagues.....here is hoping the NBA implements the proposed minor league (NBDL) plan starting next season. We kept our first round and second rounders in this summer draft (as it stands now). Lets see who we draft and how they pan out. Also Badiane and Spanoulis look to be on their way to joining this team for next season. Lets end this discussion now and come back this time next year God willing to see where this question stands. PS. New Orleans will land Stromile Swift and they will.......:sigh: over pay to get him "back home".
So your argument that JVG hates rookies not only rests on the pillar that he doesn't play an undrafted rookie free agent point guard who can't shoot, it rests on the sliver of evidence that a rookie free agent point guard who can't shoot who is playing should play 5-6 more minutes a game, as compared to a veteran who can't shoot who is playing too many minutes. I don't have to be a lawyer to tell you that your argument is weaker than Barrett's jumper. Let us rewind a bit, the myth that is being spread is that "JVG won't play rookies/young players because they are rookies/young players" My counter to that is that: He has never been given any young players who could contribute. Your counter to that is to hold up Andre freaking Barrett, a small, undrafted free agent who has not played particularly well that the Rox basically signed off the scrap heap, and cite him as a young player who could contribute, because he is behind "Rod Strickland teh worst player evarrr!!!11!!!" on the depth chart. Do you know how flimsy this looks? Can you honestly read this and not understand why your argument looks ridiculous? Do I need to explain
Nachbar didn't play (or doesn't play, for that matter) be cause he is a member of a dying fad... that's right, FAD. A few years ago, because of Dirk, Peja, etc, it was "popular" amongst the leauge to draft mysterious, young Euro's in order to counteract the dying art of the jump shot in American basketball. Darko, the guy that Denver got (won't even try to pronounce that one), Nachbar... there are other Euro duds (and exceptions to the above examples) but I am betting that you will see less "mysterious" Europeans getting drafted. Hopefully they'll do it like the NFL: if we don't know about ya, you're runnin around cones, doin bench presses, and takin personality tests.
Sorry Sam, if you are able to read properly, or humble enough to read others post properly, I would have taken you more seriously. As of now, I won't further waste my time...
I can't imagine any top 10 team in the playoff hunt starting an UNDRAFTED, UNPROVEN point guard over Rod Strickland who while slow was EXPERIENCED. You act as if Barrett is a first round pick, I think he has some game but no coach in JVG's position would have started Barrett over Strickland. I don't even think Popovich or Larry Brown would even have Barrett on the roster if they were coaching our team. It's rare for undrafted guys to even make a team let alone be starting on a playoff team. When was the last time you heard of a playoff team starting an undrafted point guard shooting less than 30%. Rod was hitting a thing, but I would trust him way more than Barrett to run the team.
Michecon, at least you've stooped to zero substantive content rather trying to pimp Andre Barrett as a young stud - makes your posts only slightly less ridiculous. Not sure how quoting those posts of mine explaining why the "JVG doesn't play rookies" crowd is wrong helps your cause, but whatever.
