I think JVG will work fine with this team, but the problem will be that on most nights in the west, he will be outmatched. For all those optimistic fans, think about the lineups the Rockets will be facing on a nightly basis in the West. Parker-Manu-Hedo-Duncan-Rasho adv Sa Cassell-Spree-Wally-KG-Kandi adv Minny Payton-Kobe-George-Malone-Shaq adv La Bibby-Christie-Peja-Webber-Miller adv Sac Nash-Finley-Jamison-Dirk-LaFrentz adv Dallas Marbury-Penny-Marion-Amare-? adv Phoe Anderson-Wells-Wallace-Randolph-Davis adv Port vs Francis-Mobley-Ming-Nachbar or Rice-Griffin-Ming. What team can you lineup and really feel like you have a winning chance against?Maybe Phoe and thats it. Not only that, but those teams aren't that old. In 3 yrs those teams best players will still be around 30 yrs old especially phoenix. Waiting for something magically to happen to become contenders isn't or shouldn't be a thought.
Just to throw salt in the wound, i wonder if the Rockets thought of offering a sign and trade with La for Odom. When the math is done, we could have offered Rice(9m) and Nachbar(1m) for that same contract he signed and La would have enough to make their payroll without having long term contracts. Just a thought.
Well I would love to have Odom. I would like to get Odom for Rice and Nachbar...but I don't think the Heat would do it. We'd have to ask Hottodie about their situation.... And yeah. I don't think we can beat any of those teams easily. We could win at least 1 out of 4 against each of them. Our team is just not good enough to beat them. We are a good team. But they are even better!
I didn't say the Heat, I meant before he went and signed with the Heat. Most in the know figured he was going to leave and that La wasn't going to match, that where the Rockets could have come in. Under NBA rules, a team must spend 32m on player salaries. The Clippers , even with the signings of Maggette and Brand are really pushing that. Knowing Odom would leave and trying to salvage something in return, why could the Rockets step and offer a sign and trade for Odom and give up Rice with his expiring contract and Nachbar and his rookie contract for Odom in a sign and trade . If you calculate the numbers, those 2 salaries would combine to equal Odom's salary and still not go over the luxury tax. Its all about being aggressive and so far it doesn't seem like the Rockets are doing that. Once again , the free agents or players we're getting are the ones probably no one else wants just like with Taylor a couple of yrs ago. Instead of Pike, what was wrong with Jon Barry? Instead of Adrian Griffin, what was wrong with Stephan Jackson or Terrance Morris? Maybe JVG is a miracle worker, because thats what it will take to get wins against the top seeds in the West this season.
Which is EXACTLY why I have maintained all summer long that the Rockets need a THIRD STAR player on this team to add with Francis & Yao to compete in the West. There just is no other way. And Mobley is just to inconsistant. We would LOVE for Griffin to turn into that 3rd star, but right now can we afford to WAIT to SEE if it will happen? Or do we persue a 3rd star (like SAR) that might make the team more competitive in the West RIGHT NOW?
There's more to winning games than having the advantage in individual matchups. Granted, it certainly helps, but even if you are outmatched in terms of pure talent, it doesn't take a miracle to win games. Otherwise, the Kings should have won the last two championships, the Blazers the one before that, etc. No, if this team can learn to play tough defense on a consistent basis, to learn how to control tempo, to actually develop some more complex offensive schemes... We can still win games against the top teams in the West. If not, we can still win games against the mediocre teams in the West, and all the teams in the East. We went 25-5 against the Leastern Conference in 2000-2001, the year we won 45 games and set a record for most wins without making the playoffs. What I think sucks about the Rockets is that they aren't locks for the playoffs and even worse they're not even fun to watch like the Warriors or the Bucks. Hell, the Clippers were at least entertaining if you're into unintentional comedy
Contender? No. Playoff maker? a lock. It sends shivers down one's spine looking at the starting lineups of western powerhouses, meanwhile it's assuring to know that being worse than only 7 teams gives us a playoff spot. We are a mediocre team. I'll be happy to make the playoffs first. The future of this team resides on how our young players turn out. When Yao and others have reached their ceilings it will be the right time to tell the direction of the team. Right now it's a little early to throw pieces together. I'm not opposing trading for good players like SAR or Odom, as long as there is a net gain in talent for us in trades I say go for it. However, the current inactivity is more of an exercise of patience. Sort of like hunters crouching down and waiting for the best chance to not waste limited ammos. Frankly speaking, none of the SAR or Odom types exactly fits the Rockets need. IMO we need a young Horace Grant type of pf that can hit the open shots, play good individual defense and grabs rebounds more than some scoring oriented sfs, as our 4 spot is as inadequate as our 3s and good 4s are harder to find than good 3s. SARs and Odoms would be upgrades but not sure bet the missing pieces by common perception. It will need time to tell and find the missing pieces.
Panda - I hear you, and the others who are in agreement with you, and this is where you and I, (and the likes of Deuce, leebig, A-train, et al...) part company. We are NOT going to be content with mediocrity, especially when there is absolutley NO guarantee that staying mediocre for one more season is going to net us anything AT ALL, except perhaps more mediocrity. It's a risk to think that next year we are going to somehow magically attract some big name F.A. just because we have cap space!! San Antonio was the sure bet for J.Kidd and he stayed in N.J. (which will ultimately = No Ring ) I say you have to TAKE what you want in a situation like the NBA, and damn the consequences. In years past, Les had that same attitude... Why he's suddenly content with this group is far beyond me!!
Yeah, all of this wishful optimisim is getting a bit tiring. Too many on this board are buying or have bought into the idea that all this team needed was a little more discipline and that with JVG cracking the whip over their sorry butts, the Rockets will improve by 7-10 games and make the playoffs (stirring music plays!). If you look back over the past few years, you will come to see that their lack of success on the court was not the result of a lack of discipline but rather a combination of factors such as poor coaching, poor basketball play, injuries, inadequate talent, a lack of basketball knowledge and skill and so on. The result has been an average to below average team that is wildly inconsistent on the floor. What's been interesting to note is how quickly and easily this organization reaches for and uses crutch-like excuses to address this state of affairs rather than actually having a PLAN to fix this. Folks here will recall how 2 seasons ago, when they won 47 games and did not make the playoffs, the lament was: "If only we were in the East - we'd be a playoff team". Then there's the favorite of this board: "We're a YOUNG team". Somewhere in the archives, I looked at this team in terms of their amount of years in the league and came to the conclusion that aside from Yao, Boki & E (doobie) G, this team is really not all that young. They reach for this "youth" excuse time and time again to explain away their shortcomings on the court. As A-Train points out, this has really gotten old and tiring to hear. It also obscures the fact that the organization has made questionable personnel moves that have come back to haunt them. It is because of this that I feel that all of this optimism for the upcoming season is somewhat misplaced. This team has serious flaws and a long ways to go before they can contend in the West. JVG is a good coach but the reality is that for now, he is simply overmatched. It's very well possible that they improve their record and STILL not make the playoffs. Once reality sets in, the optimism will turn to anger. To quote Desert Scar:
At first I was going to disagree with the title of this thread as the Astros have made the playoffs at least once since 1999. Now, when you consider that only 4 teams make the NL playoffs out of a possible 16 while in the NBA Western Conference, 8 teams make it out of 14, it is a sobering thought that the Rockets have had this playoff drought. But I understand what lee is saying and I agree. I, personally, feel that CD and Les do not want to admit that they have hitched their wagon to some players who are really not as great as they think they are like Francis, Mobley, Griffin, etc. The only player that I see on the Rockets team who has a clue of how to play basketball smartly is Yao. Period. To make matters worse, it seems that many teams that miss the playoffs after going all the time have a hard time getting back to that playoff level (see the Hawks, Warriors [with Nellie], Cavs, Knicks, and the Clippers [yes, the Clippers]). I am tired of the Rockets missing the playoffs. There is nothing more that I would want than to see them back in the playoffs, but I just don't see this current cast of players sans Yao ever being a contender. They are just not smart enough. And until CD and Les and other Rockets mgmt are ready to bite the bullet and admit this, then we can actually really *think* that we can have a contending team. Now, I know some of the optimists here will say, "Well, by the time Yao is in his 4th season, he will be the best center in the league (will be true if Shaq is gone or injury-riddled) and he will carry us." But, unfortunately, Yao is one man and has to have some help. It would be great if that help knew how to play the game like him, but I don't see Francis, Mobley, etc. ever changing. I keep waiting to be proven wrong but it hasn't happened yet. And getting 2 mediocre to average role players in Adrian Griffin and Piatkowski doesn't give me much hope. How about going out and getting a true PF or re-signing James Posey or dumping Mobley, since he is the same player as Francis but not as talented, to get a true PG? I know that some of this was probably not possible, but gee, wouldn't it be nice if we at least heard that the Rockets were trying to significantly upgrade their roster? Van Gundy will probably be better than Rudy but in the end, he is not the one that is on the court taking shots, making passes, and playing defense.
damn, where to start. 1. we're not young. yeah, everyone starts a 20 year old pf and 22 year old center. and our point guard of 26? he's damn near about to retire along with our sg of 28, and our 2nd year possible sf of the future. 2. other teams are young. some are, some aren't. lakers aren't. minny isn't. sactown isn't. dallas and SA are and phoenix is, but since when does phoenix have more potential than us? 3. les is cheap. yeah, signing mo t to 8M/yr, cato to 7, moochie to 4 and giving francis his max extension w/o 2nd thought. all of that is moot now b/c we didn't give JPo 6M per (yes Sane i know it's really only 6 in the last year and whoever else, i know it's really 5.75 or whatever). even though over half the board didn't wanna sign JPo to that contract, most agreed we were better off w/ pike and AG and posey, and a lot didn't feel posey was a good fit no matter what, it clearly must be that Les is cheap and not just using the same reasoning as over half the board (who aren't even worried about losing their own money when making the decision). 4. management has done nothing, and therefore must not be trying and is content. laughable. i love how all the solutions are bringing in questionable guys. yeah, we hate mo t/cato/moochie sized contracts, but lets bring in jamison's 6 yr, 4 Billion dollar contract that runs forever. or how about lamar odom, who can't seem to play 50 games, gets busted for drugs, and has underachieved. we sure need him for 10M/yr. and SAR, can't rebound or block shots or be the enforcer everyone seems to want for yao, but hey, he's the solution. the fact management didn't go after them is clearly an indication of a non-competitive mindset. 5. we should upgrade marginally just for this year, even if it may not be in long term interest, just to be 6th instead of 7th or 8th this year. all this talk of bringing in sorta good SF's like stephen jackson or banging pf's (like there are starting quality banging pf's to just be had) to marginally upgrade the 3 or 4 is silly, as if everything is contingent on success this year. what good is stephen jackson if he's only a small upgrade at SF and he doesn't really fit us long term, but now we're committed to him long term? any banging pf would be just slightly better than mo t or griffin (actually, who among available banger pf's is better than mo t or EG?) and would waste griffin's last shot of developing. 6. we don't have time to be mediocre. uhh, yeah we do. we've got a PG who will be the ASG starter for most of the next decade and a C who could join him for all of those and maybe be one of the best players in the game in the short term future. we're not sure what we want to put around him or if who we have is right. be thankful they are young and we have time to figure it out (and to correct old mistakes) and that alot of the top teams are selling the future to go all out right now and will potentially fall by the time we're ready. who cares about a 6th seed over 7th seed or 2nd round appearance instead of 1st in the next 2 years, if having patience pays off in a team perfectly assembled to complement each other and it leads to championships? or should we just try to be as good as possible right now (even though we have no shot at a title) and possibly hurt our future teams? 7. we're like the astros. first of all, the nba gives just about everyone an equal salary field to play on, mlb does not, and when drayton limits salary, he limits overall talent (not saying he shouldn't if the revenue isn't there). in the nba, everyone's on the same field as us and les has shown he will spend money to compete. i think we have the 9th highest payroll in the league (or did last year). how are we not spending. second of all, the whole playoffs thing. ok, so the stros have finally put it together and made the playoffs 4 of 5 years after missing them for i believe 12 years. we've now missed 4 in a row after going 14 of 15 years and have had 2 losing seasons in 19 years, both directly attributable to being decimated by injuries. we lost 3 HOFer's for nothing and a 4th for cato and yet, 4 years later, are poised for another long run of playoff appearances. waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh, we finally had 4 bad years (and 2 weren't even bad and the other two were injuries filled) and were mediocre for a while. whoopty friggin do. we're back on the rise and have recovered better than many other franchises. focus on that. yeah but he can still help those who are, and the people who are here aren't that crappy. i know patience is hard, but it is necessary, and luckily for us, it's about as close to a luxury as you're gonna see for any other team.
I don't think anyone can blame Les for this one. No one told Rudy and company to give out these long term deals to avg players like Taylor,Cato,and Norris. No one told CD and Rudy to trade for a over the hill Glen Rice nor over stock this team at pf 3 yrs in a row. The thing is that you have to spend money smart or rid yourself of the mistakes which the Rockets seem like they either can't or won't. If Griffin is the answer at the 4, it makes no sense in his backup making 8m a yr. We know Francis is the pg, but why does his back have a 7 yr deal worth 3.5 a yr when guys like Bobby Jackson and Redd make the same amount and are better players. Hell the Rockets could have played hard ball and signed Damon Jones or kept Tierre for much,much less than Moochie. The thing is that this team will make the playoffs by default but will not advance for yrs to come. All of the teams that are ahead of the Rockets are no where close to being like the Jazz in terms of age. On all of the team that are ahead of the Rockets, the oldest superstar is 31 which is Shaq and he's bak with a vengence. So if we expect natural regression for everyone else and progression for our players and that will propel us up the ladder, someone needs to check themselves. Phoe,Minny,Port,La,Sac,Sa, and Dall will be around for at least 3 more yrs and by then cat will be 31 and Francis 29 almost 30, then what? The time is now to try to get a team that will not only compete for a playoff spot , but compete for a top seed. If the Rockets don't , the same excuses Minny has used for 7 yrs, will start to get old. 1 playoff series and done is not the way to go at all, but looking at the current roster, that what the Rockets will do, just like the Astros.
When not signing Posey buys you nothing in future flexibility to add pieces (w or w/o the contract the next 4-5 years we won't have anything other than an MLE to offer anyway) and costs you your best forward, and a relatively young guy who could develop with your nucleas unlike your less expensive/less talented/older replacements if it isn't cheap what is it? What is further odd is for Cato, MoT and Mooch we were the only team to offer a contract like that for those guys--in the current case at least 1 other GM/team in even worse cap shape thought the guy was a bargain at that price. Who gives a flip over what half the board thinks. We are not talking about what is currently popular but what is the best course of action. This same over half the board going into the offseason would have said Posey for a 4 years deal starting at 4.9 mil would be unthinkable to turn down and a similar majority of fans thought we would never get over passing Harold Minor for Robert Horry. I would have really like Jamison, somewhat SAR and probably not Odom for that kind of money. Nonthless, you do realize we have the worst group of forwards in the entire league or can you list a group worse? Do you not think having such a cruddy group of forwards could hinder the development of the admittedly youthful Yao and SF by having them learn bad habits like trying to take over games themselves, having them play way too many minutes to stay competitive in games, and generally having teams focus/physically pound on them. At least Jackson or Posey are young--they might be around when Yao and Francis peak, that means they very well have a chance to fit in as a roll player over the long term--this can't be said about the other rent-a-cheaper-player additions we added. We took shoter term cheaper fixes over more expensive player who not only might better contributed now but certainly has a greater chance to help the future team by being a solid roll player for it. Paitence is great, but so is adding players to fit your long term needs. We are farther from addressing our long term needs than when we started this offseason (lost a young potentially very solid roll player and replaced him with older, cheaper, shoter term fixes), and it is because Les' got tight with his pocketbook--pure and simple.
D'OHHHHH! You had to remind me about September, didn't you? LOL BTW, does anyone know where training camp is going to be this year?
That is only 28 games, though. We will win a lot of those and if we just hold home court most of the time, we will easily make the playoffs. There was no player that could have been acquired by the Rox this year to make them into a championship contender, so the right move is to find out what you have during the first part of the season. Don't get me wrong, I want this team to improve too, but we need to let our coach and GM figure out what they have before making any rash decisions. We have a very good mix of players right now and I believe that Yao and EG will be vastly improved over last year, making the guard's jobs much easier as teams are forced to contend with the presence we will have up front. Defensively, JVG will have this team energized and enthusiastic and we will win the games that cost us the playoffs, namely the Cavalier, Heat, and Clipper games. Now is not the time to make a move, we need to see what we have first.
If we couldn't do it this past yr, what makes you think we will this time when all the other teams upgraded their talant.
He's a good coach, but he isn't a miracle worker. All of those teams have upgraded their talent while we haven't. JVG will make more of a difference against the sorry teams, but the upper echelon, i don't see it happening. The record we had against the west in 2001, i can see that happening again.
merely adequate, merely adequate, merely adequate! Yao is tired and oh yeah, worse than last year's head coach.
