This week the team went from being Dusty's team to being Altuve's team and if you are insulted by that I am happy to insult you.
I am not insulted at all, and certainly not by Altuve taking leadership away from Dusty. But if I was Dubon, Maldy, Bregman, Diaz, etc I would be insulted if someone said that Altuve is "single handedly dragging the team to the post season" and they are only doing well because they are emulating Altuve.
I don’t disagree at all … but I still think being “the best Astro” and “the best player employed by the Astros” are different things. I don’t give Altuve sole credit for anything happening now, but I do think he is the engine behind one of the two or three best eras of team baseball in MLB history. He performs, he performs at the most critical moments in the most hostile environments, he represents the team amazingly well, and he is an exceptional human being. That is the “best Astro” in my opinion, regardless of how many baserunning mistakes he makes.
I can understand and agree with that. Altuve is the best Astro Bagwell is the best player who is an Astro.
Cruz. I think it no longer can be debated that Bagwell- Biggio-Altuve are 1-3 For me, Berkman is #4 w/ Cruz a very close 5th. Close enough that it could be debated. It's strange that with all the great pitchers the Astros have had, none are still in the conversation.
I loved Cheo so much. He and then Charlie Kerfeld were my favorite players (for very different reasons - greatness for one and sheer joy for the other). As for pitchers, if we kept Nolan or Wagner, or if JR stayed healthy, it would be a conversation. I was in Houston for a few weeks this summer and bought my son a JR Richards card and explained to him what could have been. It was sad and wonderful at the same time … that is baseball.
Given how much Biggio's overall numbers plunged in his late-career pursuit of 3K hits, I'm comfortable putting Jose Altuve ahead of Biggio. Biggio, thru age-33: .292/.381/.437/.817; 124 OPS+ Altuve, thru age-33: .307/.364/.471/.836; 129 OPS+ Factor in Altuve's postseason successes and Biggio's 95 OPS+ the final 8 years of his career, and, really - I think it's pretty clearly Altuve. BTW, here's Bagwell through his age-33 season: .303/.415/.554/.969; 157 OPS+. (And he still had three pretty good seasons left in his shoulder after '01: .278/.384/.503/.887; 126 OPS+)
Baseball reference has Biggio had 56.2 WAR through his age 33 season and Altuve is at 49.1 which is a 14% difference and much larger than the OPS+ difference. The WAR difference will shrink a little more by the end of the year, but there will still be a big gap. Altuve is the better offensive player, but at least through age 33 Biggio was the better base-runner and defender and provided more overall value. I don't think you can penalize Biggio for being average over the last 8 years of his career when Altuve hasn't played those years yet. If Altuve continues at anything near his current pace, then yes he'll be clearly ahead of Biggio. However, Biggio went from a 5.1 WAR season at age 33 to a 1.4 the next year, so the drop off can be unexpected and quick (I really hope not for Altuve). If you're making the case for Altuve assuming he never played another game for the Astros, then the strongest case is his post-season performance and he's more the "the guy" because he hasn't had a Bagwell playing alongside him.
FanGraphs has it much closer: 55 to 52.6. (BBREF always over-inflates defense, and Biggio got a bump from BBREF for being a catcher). Biggio got hurt in 2001 - but, yes: the road to Cooperstown is littered with middle infielders on pace who dropped off a cliff, post-30. And I'm not penalizing Biggio, per se. At this point in their careers, they are virtually equal. And that's where. I think, the postseason results come into play. Whatever (small) statistical advantage Biggio has over Altuve, it is wiped out by Altuve's postseason numbers. You just can't discount those. So even if the Altuve drop-off happens after this season- unless it's a drastic drop-off, I'm not sure he's going to fall enough to wipe out the sizeable advantage his postseason numbers will give him.
Tuve may not carry the Stros every season, but he is the one in the clubhouse everyone respects year-after year. Not every clubhouse is like the Astros, ask Verlander about the Mets, or Graveman about the White Sox. Remember earlier this season, he had a bad injury playing WBC which could of sidelined him for the whole season. He is even in the head of Aroldis Chapman, who just said he would of hit his 4th HR last night. This is why he is the Greatest Astros ever.
If you're making the case based on his post-season play then no arguments there. Looking at overall performance/value through their age 33 seasons then Biggio is slightly ahead to a more noticeably ahead (in a best Astro thread I think Biggio's positional flexibility through age 33 counts). Biggio clearly hung on too long, but playing 20 years for the Astros also counts for something for me when having a greatest Astro conversation. If Altuve stays reasonably healthy he's going to retire the best Astro off all time no doubt. If he stopped playing today, then I think there is a strong case for Biggio and also a strong case for Altuve depending on what matters to you. They are definitely #1 and #2 in some order right now.
I'm not sure what you're arguing? If Biggio is "slightly ahead to more noticeably ahead" - how are Altuve's postseason accomplishments not significantly closing that gap? When I'm looking at their numbers through their age-33 seasons, it is most assuredly counting postseason. Altuve's advantage there is so overwhelming, it just can't be ignored. I really can't see the argument anymore for Biggio > Altuve. I recognize Altuve's career is incomplete - but Biggio's final 8 years - and his last five years especially - were below average. The Astros were actively making their team worse giving him 500+ PAs/year his final two seasons. So unless Altuve falls off a cliff (literally or figuratively), he'll probably be in range of all of Biggio's rate stats by the end of his career, and he'll have this incredible postseason resume that'll wipe away any potential gap. I'm very comfortable putting Altuve #2 behind Bagwell.
I’m not attempting to argue. I’m saying if you look at WAR through their age 33 seasons, Biggio was either slightly more valuable or significantly more valuable depending on which version you use. He still had the highest WAR season for any Astro, was an all star at multiple positions, and played for the Astros for 20. So when I answer the greatest of who was the greatest Astro those things put him ahead of Altuve right now for me. I think when all is said in done Altuve will pass him. I don’t have any problems with why you think Altuve has already passed him or that you are weighing different aspects of their careers differently to answer what is an inherently subjective question.
