I don't disagree that Altuve is a critical piece, obviously he is. But there has been a lot...a lot, of talent around Altuve. He was dog s**t this year in the first 2 rounds, and we swept through them. He was god awful in his first playoff series in 15, and we were a late meltdown away from winning that series 3-1. There have been multiple series where he didn't play well and we won. He has been our most consistent cog over the run, but far from the only one. Those 97-01 team don't even make the postseason without Bagwell except maybe 98, all of our teams except possibly 21 go in easy without Altuve. Altuve also hasn't had to face Cy Young winners almost every damn game.
That Tampa series though when he became the defensive Chuck Knoblauch with yips... you could argue, Altuve was the single reason why we went down 0-3... but also the reason why it got to a game 7. If Altuve also had Bagwell's baseball IQ in baserunning...
Bagwell also wasn't playing with stiffs. He had talent around him as well (in fact, more MLB-proven talent, given the stages of everybody's career). HOF-level Biggio, All-star level Cammy, All-star level Hidalgo, All-star level Alou, All-star level Berkman, All-star level Bell, All-star level C. Everett... and they had really good starting pitching throughout those years). The Altuve Astros ascended and succeeded early on when everybody was just getting promoted... while the Bagwell Astros actually peaked a little later in all of their careers. Definitely shortened their initial window... which was really kept open by the ascendance of Oswalt/Berkman in 2001, when Bagwell/Biggio were past their peaks. Had the Bagwell/Biggio Astros found success during their arbitration years (like the Altuve Astros ended up doing), you may have seen a similar like run.
I don't think there's any case for him being the best, Bagwell exists, but I could see people saying he's their favorite.
Save for 98 none of those teams make the postseason without Bagwell. Cammy and Hidalgo weren't close to all star level talent in the playoff years. Those teams were not stacked, not even close compared to Altuves units that went 7 or 8 deep with great hitters and multiple Cy Young candidates.
Cammy was an all-star earlier on. And Hidalgo played all-star level baseball in 2000 and 2002. The 2001 Astros had MVP-caliber performances from Alou AND Berkman. Some of those Astros teams that didn't make the playoffs actually underachieved. And I don't think you can presume the Astros are "just fine" without Altuve for every single year. 2019 was the only really overly stacked lineup with everybody already finding their stride. You also had a lot of young guys who went through some expected adjustment phases in their early years. Hell, they paid over the hill Beltran $20 million in 2017 to be their DH. Altuve was the freakin MVP that year, with Correa saddled, Bregman's first full season, Springer missing time, and Josh Reddick a middle of the order hitter.
Coincidentally in 01 when Bagwell had other true studs he had a good series. The 17 team had good to great hitters at every position, even a catcher that hit.
Agree to disagree. Altuve did have some great lineups... but he was a big reason why those lineups were great and perhaps why others in the lineup were great as well. Bagwell was the same. I really don't factor the playoffs alone in this discussion, because Bagwell had such a small sample size to draw from. (2001 was 3 games...) Both players likely helped the players surrounding them. I just don't think those 90's/2000's teams were as talent-less as many remember. They should have tried to be better in 95 and 96 as well. And no matter the context, you'd like to have had more playoff success come from that era. In the end, longevity, cumulative numbers, and accolades will be easily comparable between the two when its all said/done. The fact that its neck/neck with Altuve still having at least another 2 years of expected "good" baseball before the possible decline hits, gives him an advantage currently.
I think scenarios exist where certain players are so ridiculously dominant it's easy to lose grasp of just how dominant they were. You could say that Wayne Gretzky and Alex Ovechkin were both great players.....but Gretzky was so ridiculously dominant that Ovechkin isn't fit to carry his skates. That's kind of the situation with Bagwell and Altuve. Bagwell was a significantly better hitter than Altuve will ever be. Bagwell had 5 seasons with greater than 1.000 OPS, Altuve never will. Bagwell was a smarter baserunner than Altuve ever has been, Altuve has already caused more outs on base in his career than Bagwell had for his entire career. Bagwell was arguably the better fielder, though it's hard to compare a first baseman to a second baseman. I was never concerned when Bagwell was making a play the assumption was always that he had it, I'm often concerned about Altuve even with the most simple plays due to his past issue with the yips. I think it's pretty obvious Altuve is a future HOFer, but there's a pretty large gap between him and someone like Bagwell. Team success shouldn't blind people to that. Bagwell would be the best player on any team Altuve has ever been on, Altuve wouldn't be the best player on any team Bagwell has ever been on.
Bagwell vs Altuve teammate support These numbers do not include them, as the point is to determine who had more support around them. Out of convenience I have used bWAR because it converts to both hitters and pitchers and adjusts for various factors with the league. Seasons: 15+ players w/ 1+ WAR Bagwell 1 (7%) Altuve 5 (42%) 10+ players w/ 1+ WAR Bagwell 13 (87%) Altuve 9 (75%) Less than 10 1+ WAR Bagwell 2 (13%) Altuve 3 (25%) 10+ teammates with 2+ WAR Bagwell 1 (7%) Altuve 5 (42%) 5+ teammates w/ 2+ WAR Bagwell 12 (80%) Altuve 9 (75%) 4 or fewer 2+ WAR Bagwell 3 (20%) Altuve 3 (25%) 3 or more teammates w/ 5+ WAR Bagwell 4 (27%) Altuve 3 (25%) 2 or more teammates w/ 5+ WAR Bagwell 7 (47%) Altuve 7 (58%) Exactly 1 teammate w/ 5+ WAR Bagwell 8 (53%) Altuve 1 (8%) No teammates w/ 5+ WAR Bagwell 0 Altuve 4 (33%) What I have determined is that Altuve's teams are more extreme. He had 5 of the 6 seasons with the most teammate support but also the 4 worst. Bagwell's teams were mostly in the middle without many very deep great teams but also no talent devoid teams. * I adjusted 2020 and 1994 to 162 games.
I gave a teammate with: 8+ WAR = 10pts 5+ WAR = 6pts 2+ WAR = 3pts 1+ WAR = 1pt 2019=53 1998=49 2021=48 2018=48 2020*=44 2017=42 2005=41 2022=41 2015=37 2003=37 1997=37 2001=37 1999=35 2016=33 1993=31 1994*=28 1992=26 2000=26 1995=23 2002=23 2004=22 1996=19 1991=19 2011=18 2014=17 2012=16 2013=16 Again these do not include Altuve or Bagwell only their teammates
Is Altuve the best Astro ever? offensively, yes I think so. But nobody will ever have Bagwells ‘94 season again. They were different hitters. It’s a shame that Bags and Biggio couldn’t ever explode in the playoffs. It hurts their legacy. They were truly amazing players.
Congrats Jose! I think for now he is the best Stro. Biggio is my all time favorite Stro and loved Bagwell. There’s also a few pitchers out there with names like Ryan and Richards but for what Altuve has done over his career and to reach this milestone as fast as he has I think that makes him the best Astro.
