Cross-era comparisons are tough. There is no center who even remotely played with the offensive skill level of Jokic in the 80s or 90s (Hakeem included), and certainly not in the 60s or 70s when Wilt, Russell, and Kareem were at their zenith. But, yes, the game has evolved to allow offensively skilled players to flourish more and dominate the game.
I think that goes both ways. The zone obviously changes everything as far as getting Shaq the ball - but he would be able to get positioning now far easier than before. He would have to play likely 20 LBS less than he did in the past to be able to limit damage on the perimeter, but if Jokic can do it, Shaq would cover the perimeter even better due to his athleticism and explosiveness. Michael Jordan would absolutely feast in this era offensively - because of hand checking not being allowed. The only way Jordan was ever slowed down was with extreme physical contact.
No, I don't completely agree with that. Olajuwon, David Robinson and Kareem all had extremely high skill levels. We don't know how good at shooting 3's that they would be (although I suspect at least Dream would be good at it), but all three of these guys were exceptionally good mid-range shooters and under the basket and they all three were good passers and could handle the ball. While Jokic is the best passing center I have ever seen - that is off set with the post play and mid-range play of Olajuwon, Robinson and Kareem. Also, the athleticism difference between someone like Olajuwon and Robinson and Shaq would make it impossible for Jokic to cover them.
Shaq can get position all he wants, the defense will deny him the ball. On the perimeter, Shaq can have all the athleticism and explosiveness he wants, he was heavy. Get him going one way, and just pass the ball to the other side. On Jordan, he only had to beat one man and a rim protector. He would be denied the ball and have to work farther from the basket than he did as a Bull in today's NBA. Take any of Jordan's Bulls teams into today's game, Jordan is always doubled as three defenders on most of the good teams could take out the rest of the Bulls. Jordan never played in a game that allowed defenses to double a man without the ball. The rules and the way the game was played back then basically allowed great players space without having to work for it.
I think it's light and day when you talk about shooting prowess, passing, and dribbling ability between Jokic and those three greats. I'm OK with giving an edge to Olajuwon and Kareem for pure post play, but Jokic is quite good in that area as well so the gap there is relatively smaller. Robinson's post skills were not all that impressive to me, but he made up for it with his athletic gifts.
You underestimate the quickness and athleticism of Shaq, he would get over quicker than you think. He would also likely play 15-20 lbs. lighter today than when he played, as he easily gained and lost weight. If Jokic isn't rendered unplayable on defense at C, then Shaq would have no issues - the difference in athleticism and foot speed between the two is massive. Jordan didn't just have to beat his man and a rim protector as the lane was often clogged in the late 80's and 90's because the spacing was worse. Jordan often times had multiple defenders come at him on the way to the basket. The lane now is far less congested because of the wider spacing now with three-point threats. The Bulls did not simply isolate on each possession with Jordan. Jordan has played games where teams could double or triple without the ball - he did in the Olympics. If Jordan could deal with hand checking and nasty picks, he can deal with being doubled or tripled off ball. Jordan was a superior athlete. We unfortunately do not know because the eras are different.... but I really don't think Jordan would have had any issues on offense in the modern era. The only area he would have needed to improve was from 3, and his range extended as he aged.
There is no doubt that Jokic is the best passing center of all time - better than even Bill Walton. However, all three of the players I listed were good passers. When it comes to dribbling - Olajuwon and Robinson both were very good at it, they just were not supposed to do it - Olajuwon used to dribble and then cross players over on the way to the basket. Robinson was good at it too. Also, the gap in the post is pretty large to me - Jokic lacks the quickness that Olajuwon or Robinson had and Kareem was exceptional in the post. As for Robinson, athleticism plays a huge part with post skills, it is why someone like Amare Stoudamire was so good in the post.
Agreed - and I would say that Jokic is the best offensive center since at least Jabbar and Wilt, and arguably the best ever because of the passing and three point shot. I just don't think that defensively he is close to other guys who were not as good on offense as Jokic, but still really good.
We don't know what players would be like if they played in today's game. I will say I think you drastically underestimate how much more skill is on the average roster 3-12 than it was back then. I think you drastically underestimate how hard it is to get great players the ball close to the basket these days. I think you drastically underestimate how much harder players work today. I don't think Jordan would have problems if he was on a modern NBA team, but I don't think he would be so far above most of the league as he was back then. I do think his Bulls teams would get destroyed under the current rules by modern teams. For one, those teams did not have the conditioning of the current teams. I'd guess modern players run at least a mile more than players back then. On spacing, watch the bad teams play a great team. Say, how Cade was guarded last season. Spacing is great for the teams that have 4 shooters. I don't think any of the Bulls teams had more than 2 shooters not counting Jordan by today's standards. Maybe the Bulls voluntarily didn't have good spacing, but my memories of Jordan don't involve him having to work much until he got close to the three-point line. Sure, he might be handchecked, but they didn't deny him the ball. The infamous Jordan vs Russell game winner....where was the nail defender?
The real question is how high ranked was his footspeed and footwork in comparison to the greats like Hakeem who was the master of footwork. Joker is more like a chess player that he anticipates opponents moves and then start his own maneuvers which are beyond solid. I am not as worried about the Nuggets because of the other 4 players are way worse than Jokic, not bad players at all but just far away from Jokic and it is a team game. That said I really liked how they developed Christian Braun, I think he is really nice.
There is no question that the rosters now are more skilled, especially in the 4-12 parts of the roster. Offensively especially the rosters are better and the defenders on teams from the 90's on the bench were there predicated on the rules of the times. I also do not doubt that players work harder today and train harder - but players like Jordan would also benefit from the training regimens of today. The game was more physical in the 90's, I didn't say it was better - it was just different. No, I don't think it is any harder for Michael Jordan to get the ball today or to get to the basket. I think players today are better shooters and and overall more athletic and better ball handlers but I don't think Michael Jordan would have anymore difficulty getting the ball today or getting to the basket today. While he has to worry about zones, he doesn't have to worry about being hand checked all the way up the court and he doesn't have to worry about being hit going through the lane. I definitely think that Jordan would be every bit as dominant now as in the 80's and 90's and possibly more because his game is very much made for this era of basketball. Would his Bulls teams get destroyed in the modern NBA? Yeah, probably. They were built for a different era. Rodman and Pippen and Jordan would all do well but the rest would not ..... but I was assuming Jordan wouldn't be playing with his teammates from that era. I am not claiming that the 80's and 90's era of basketball was better or worse than the current game. There are something better back then, but also there are a lot better in the game of right now. I was simply saying that some players from that era would thrive and in some cases do better now than then.... and there are a lot of players that would struggle now.... and vice versa, Steph Curry for example would struggle in the 90's because of how physical the game was. Again, I am not talking about the entire Bulls team. I am saying that the spacing in the NBA right now is better than it was in the 90's because of the lack of shooting in the 90's, the use of big centers - hand checking - the league also allowed a lot of contact them. Jordan was hand checked going to the three point line in the 90's, less so in the 80's but it doesn't really matter - he is going to get the ball in his hands, and once he does he is going to have a far more open lane to the basket. On the last shot - the Jazz couldn't double of triple Jordan in the backcourt..... the Jazz had the ball, Stockton threw a pass to Malone, who was basically triple teamed and Jordan stole the ball from Malone.... the Jazz defenders had to get back because the Bulls were breaking down the court. Jordan came down the court and Kerr peeled to the key on the right side - on the left corner was an open Kukoc - the Jazz had 4 defenders in the paint and there were three Bulls in the paint.... Jordan pulls up (after a push off) and hits a 22 footer. Anyway - I am not arguing with you, I like discussing things with you and hope you understand that.[/QUOTE]
It make sense on a Rockets board the better than Hakeem would trigger some people, but it’s a legit opinion to have. And cross era comparisons are always tough as pointed out. Glad actually people kept it civil for the most part. As far as replacing Jokic with Shaq or Dream in this day and age, obviously Shaq wouldn’t do anything but make them worse. Also in general Jokic vs Shaq is an easy W for Jokic to me. Give him a Kobe and see how many trophies he would have. Murray is a solid player, but he’s no Kobe. Hakeem would provide much better defense, but offensively you are not going to get Jokic type of production without a legit 3pt shot. Also as smooth and unstoppable his moves were, today’s players are quicker and more athletic so I don’t see players getting abused by that as much as they did in the 90s. Also they could throw a lot more versatile defenses at Dream and he’d have less room to work with, so I think I’d take my chance with Jokic. Also because physically he’s just overpowering, which gives him an edge.
