1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

John Hollinger leaving ESPN to work for the Grizzlies

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by redhotrox, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,570
    Random Non-Rockets trade idea:

    To Denver: Gay
    To Memphis: Iguodala

    Who says no?
     
  2. JMAD21

    JMAD21 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2010
    Messages:
    4,285
    Likes Received:
    866
    Is that a threat? Lol what are you gonna do?

    Take the Internet tough guy act somewhere else man!
     
  3. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    53,279
    Likes Received:
    109,720
    What???? You don't like 19 points on 17 shots?
     
    Pizza_Da_Hut likes this.
  4. HMMMHMM

    HMMMHMM Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    4,031
    Likes Received:
    597
    I think Denver might not do it because they may think neither Gay or Gallinari can play SG. If it wasn't for Gallinari, I think they'd go for it.

    For the Grizzlies it makes some sense, but Iggy is 2.5 years older, not a great shooter and very much reliant on his athleticism, which may be gone sooner than later.

    Oh, and:

     
  5. Lovemachine2000

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2008
    Messages:
    1,465
    Likes Received:
    355
    LOL did you guys see the ESPN story on the news? Hollinger's photo looks like a DUI mugshot. Stay classy ESPN.
     
  6. Carl Herrera

    Carl Herrera Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2007
    Messages:
    45,153
    Likes Received:
    21,570
    I don't think ESPN is too pissed right now. Having a former colleague with a team helps (with reputation that its guys has expertise and with possible access for future coverage). It is not like they lost Hollinger to a competitor like Yahoo or SI or NBC Sports.
     
  7. durvasa

    durvasa Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    37,891
    Likes Received:
    15,361
    Hollinger has been one of the sharpest NBA writers out there. Honestly, his Pro Basketball Forecasts revitalized my interest in the NBA several years ago after I had drifted away during the "Pippen Era". I know many viewed him as just a "stats" guy, but his breakdowns of teams and players and transactions indicated a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the league that few of his peers had.

    On comparing NBA EFF rating to PER, I'd hesitate to infer that one is superior to the other simply based on how well its top 50 list matches our pre-existing opinions. Our opinions, whether we recognize it or not, is often shaped by the simple metrics popularized over the years like PPG, RPG, APG, "double-doubles", "triple-doubles", etc. NBA EFF matches up pretty well with these type of "Fantasy league" stats. Basically, if we believe a player's greatness is determined by how well he "fills up a boxscore", then the NBA EFF stat is a pretty good measure to go by (especially considering how easy it is to calculate).

    PER is more complicated to compute, true. I like that it is pace-adjusted, foremost. The argument against per-minute stats, to me, is overblown. If one's goal is to understand how effective a player is while he's on the floor, then it makes sense to adjust for minutes. If one's goal is to understand how effective a player would be if given X minutes per game, well then the minutes adjustment may or may not be helpful. In any case, its easy enough to "readjust" PER so that its no longer a per-minute stat (simply multiply by MPG/36, for example).

    Anyways, here are the top 50 lists through the 08/09 season. I was using the data from databasebasketball.com to rank player careers by EFF, and they only include stats through the 08/09 season.

    Code:
    [SIZE="2"]Regular Season (min. 10000 minutes):[/size]
    
    [size="1"]
    [B]Rk   Name                gp     MPG    EFF            Rk   Player              G     MPG    PER[/B]
    1    Wilt Chamberlain    1045   45.8   41.5           1    Michael Jordan      1072  38.3   27.9
    2    Bill Russell        963    42.3   31.7           2    Shaquille O'Neal    1117  35.7   26.9
    3    Oscar Robertson     1040   42.2   31.6           3    LeBron James        472   40.6   26.2
    4    Bob Pettit          792    38.8   31.1           4    David Robinson      987   34.7   26.2
    5    Kareem Abdul-jabbar 1560   36.8   30.9           5    Wilt Chamberlain    1045  45.8   26.1
    6    Larry Bird          897    38.4   29.8           6    Chris Paul          300   37.2   25.8
    7    Elgin Baylor        846    40.0   29.7           7    Bob Pettit          792   38.8   25.3
    8    Michael Jordan      1072   38.3   29.2           8    Dwyane Wade         394   37.9   25.2
    9    Magic Johnson       906    36.7   29.1           9    Tim Duncan          899   36.9   25
    10   Charles Barkley     1073   36.7   28.2           10   Neil Johnston       516   35.5   24.7
    11   Jerry Lucas         829    38.8   28.1           11   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1560  36.8   24.6
    12   LeBron James        472    40.6   27.2           12   Charles Barkley     1073  36.7   24.6
    13   Hakeem Olajuwon     1238   35.7   27.2           13   Magic Johnson       906   36.7   24.1
    14   Shaquille O'neal    1117   35.7   27.1           14   Karl Malone         1476  37.2   23.9
    15   Jerry West          932    39.2   27.1           15   Kevin Garnett       1055  37.6   23.8
    16   David Robinson      987    34.7   27.0           16   Dirk Nowitzki       839   36.6   23.8
    17   Karl Malone         1476   37.2   26.9           17   Kobe Bryant         948   36.4   23.6
    18   Kevin Garnett       1055   37.6   26.8           18   Hakeem Olajuwon     1238  35.7   23.6
    19   Tim Duncan          899    36.9   26.4           19   Larry Bird          897   38.4   23.5
    20   Walt Bellamy        1043   37.3   26.3           20   Oscar Robertson     1040  42.2   23.2
    21   Dave Cowens         766    38.6   26.2           21   Tracy McGrady       784   35.0   23.1
    22   Chris Paul          301    37.1   25.3           22   Yao Ming            481   32.7   23
    23   Bob Lanier          959    33.5   25.3           23   Jerry West          932   39.2   22.9
    24   Bob McAdoo          852    33.2   24.5           24   Elgin Baylor        846   40.0   22.7
    25   Dirk Nowitzki       839    36.6   24.3           25   Amare Stoudemire    434   34.2   22.6
    26   Dwyane Wade         394    37.9   24.2           26   Elton Brand         643   38.0   22.4
    27   Moses Malone        1329   33.9   24.1           27   Moses Malone        1329  33.9   22.3
    28   Willis Reed         650    35.5   24.1           28   Julius Erving       836   34.3   22
    29   Elvin Hayes         1303   38.4   24.0           29   Dolph Schayes       866   34.4   22
    30   Rick Barry          794    36.3   24.0           30   Pau Gasol           584   35.7   21.8
    31   Elton Brand         643    38.0   24.0           31   John Stockton       1504  31.8   21.8
    32   Nate Thurmond       964    37.2   23.7           32   George Gervin       791   33.5   21.7
    33   Chris Webber        831    37.1   23.7           33   Bob Lanier          959   33.5   21.7
    34   Wes Unseld          984    36.4   23.7           34   Clyde Lovellette    704   27.1   21.7
    35   Billy Cunningham    654    34.3   23.5           35   Dominique Wilkins   1074  35.5   21.6
    36   Patrick Ewing       1183   34.3   23.4           36   Adrian Dantley      955   35.8   21.5
    37   Julius Erving       836    34.3   23.4           37   Harry Gallatin      496   31.9   21.5
    38   Neil Johnston       516    35.5   23.2           38   Manu Ginobili       478   27.7   21.5
    39   Dwight Howard       407    35.9   23.2           39   Vince Carter        777   37.7   21.4
    40   Brad Daugherty      548    36.5   23.1           40   Dwight Howard       407   35.9   21.2
    41   Shawn Marion        744    37.7   23.0           41   Alonzo Mourning     838   31.0   21.2
    42   Artis Gilmore       909    32.7   23.0           42   Arvydas Sabonis     470   24.2   21.2
    43   Amare Stoudemire    434    34.2   22.9           43   Clyde Drexler       1086  34.6   21.1
    44   Walt Frazier        825    37.5   22.7           44   Allen Iverson       886   41.4   21.1
    45   Gus Johnson         560    35.2   22.6           45   Patrick Ewing       1183  34.3   21
    46   Adrian Dantley      955    35.8   22.6           46   Dan Issel           718   31.1   21
    47   Kobe Bryant         948    36.4   22.6           47   Paul Pierce         813   37.5   21
    48   Clyde Drexler       1086   34.6   22.4           48   Chris Webber        831   37.1   20.9
    49   Pau Gasol           584    35.7   22.3           49   Gilbert Arenas      433   37.4   20.7
    50   Yao Ming            481    32.7   22.2           50   Carlos Boozer       432   32.5   20.7[/SIZE]
    
    Code:
    [SIZE="2"]Playoffs (min. 1000 minutes):[/size]
    
    [size="1"]
    [B]Rk   Name                gp     MPG    EFF            Rk   Player              G     MPG    PER[/B]
    1    Wilt Chamberlain    160    47.2   37.6           1    Michael Jordan      179   41.8   28.6
    2    Bill Russell        165    45.4   35.0           2    George Mikan        41    36.6   28.5
    3    Hakeem Olajuwon     145    39.6   31.0           3    LeBron James        60    43.8   26.8
    4    Michael Jordan      179    41.8   30.9           4    Shaquille O'Neal    203   38.6   26.5
    5    Magic Johnson       190    39.7   30.4           5    Tim Duncan          160   39.8   26.1
    6    Larry Bird          164    42.0   29.5           6    Hakeem Olajuwon     145   39.6   25.7
    7    Charles Barkley     123    39.4   29.2           7    Amare Stoudemire    36    37.5   25
    8    Elgin Baylor        134    41.1   28.9           8    Tracy McGrady       38    42.2   24.7
    9    LeBron James        60     43.8   28.9           9    Dirk Nowitzki       97    41.9   24.4
    10   Bob Pettit          88     40.3   28.5           10   Charles Barkley     123   39.4   24.2
    11   Tim Duncan          160    39.8   28.4           11   Dwight Howard       37    40.3   23.7
    12   Kareem Abdul-jabbar 237    37.3   28.4           12   Dwyane Wade         61    40.8   23.6
    13   Dirk Nowitzki       97     41.9   28.1           13   Dolph Schayes       79    34.0   23.3
    14   Dwight Howard       37     40.3   28.1           14   Kevin Garnett       73    41.0   23.2
    15   Oscar Robertson     86     42.7   27.6           15   Jerry West          153   41.3   23.1
    16   Kevin Garnett       73     40.9   27.4           16   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 237   37.3   23
    17   Jerry West          153    41.3   27.2           17   Magic Johnson       190   39.7   23
    18   Dave Cowens         89     42.3   26.7           18   David Robinson      123   34.3   23
    19   Moses Malone        94     40.4   26.7           19   Wilt Chamberlain    160   47.2   22.7
    20   Shaquille O'neal    203    38.6   26.6           20   Bob Pettit          88    40.3   22.6
    21   Elvin Hayes         96     43.3   26.4           21   Baron Davis         46    38.1   22.2
    22   Amare Stoudemire    36     37.5   26.1           22   Kobe Bryant         175   39.4   22
    23   Walt Bellamy        46     42.2   25.8           23   Elgin Baylor        134   41.1   21.8
    24   Tracy McGrady       38     42.2   25.2           24   Larry Bird          164   42.0   21.4
    25   Walt Frazier        93     42.5   25.0           25   Vince Carter        42    42.2   21.4
    26   Karl Malone         193    41.0   24.8           26   Moses Malone        94    40.4   21.4
    27   George Gervin       59     37.3   24.2           27   Allen Iverson       71    45.1   21.2
    28   Bob Lanier          67     35.2   24.1           28   Karl Malone         193   41.0   21.1
    29   Wes Unseld          119    41.1   24.1           29   George Gervin       59    37.3   21
    30   Carlos Boozer       34     37.7   24.0           30   Oscar Robertson     86    42.7   21
    31   Brad Daugherty      41     39.0   24.0           31   Pau Gasol           56    39.1   20.9
    32   Dwyane Wade         61     40.8   23.6           32   Cliff Hagan         90    32.9   20.8
    33   Julius Erving       141    37.5   23.5           33   Bob Lanier          67    35.2   20.8
    34   Pau Gasol           56     39.1   23.4           34   George Yardley      46    36.8   20.7
    35   Vince Carter        42     42.2   23.3           35   Shawn Kemp          88    33.4   20.5
    36   David Robinson      123    34.3   23.3           36   Manu Ginobili       107   30.8   20.4
    37   Clyde Drexler       145    38.4   23.0           37   Gus Williams        99    32.5   20.4
    38   Alex English        68     35.7   23.0           38   Paul Arizin         47    38.6   20.3
    39   Shawn Marion        65     40.6   22.6           39   Rick Barry          74    36.8   20.3
    40   Patrick Ewing       139    37.5   22.4           40   Carlos Boozer       34    37.7   20.1
    41   George Mikan        60     25.0   22.4           41   Julius Erving       141   37.5   20
    42   Marques Johnson     54     39.1   22.3           42   Derrick Coleman     39    37.4   19.9
    43   Isiah Thomas        111    38.0   22.3           43   Walter Davis        78    28.0   19.9
    44   Ralph Sampson       38     34.4   22.2           44   Alex English        68    35.7   19.9
    45   Bob Dandridge       98     39.6   22.1           45   Deron Williams      34    40.6   19.9
    46   Derrick Coleman     39     37.4   22.0           46   Walt Frazier        93    42.5   19.8
    47   Dolph Schayes       97     27.7   22.0           47   Anfernee Hardaway   64    41.3   19.8
    48   Deron Williams      34     40.6   22.0           48   Dan Issel           53    30.2   19.8
    49   John Havlicek       172    39.9   21.7           49   John Stockton       182   35.2   19.8
    50   Kobe Bryant         175    39.4   21.7           50   Isiah Thomas        111   38.0   19.8[/SIZE]
    
     
  8. ch0c0b0fr34k

    ch0c0b0fr34k Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,045
    Likes Received:
    80
    Interesting to see how Memphis will utilize him.
     
  9. sportsbook

    sportsbook Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    4
    There are plenty of math geeks / basketball fans that could do as good a job. Writing columns doesn't qualify one to be an executive. One involves working by oneself and the other requires working in a team, totally different dynamics.
     
  10. hooroo

    hooroo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2003
    Messages:
    18,878
    Likes Received:
    1,467
    The only other sportswriter c*m front office guy I know of is Kahn, just saying.
     
  11. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,452
    Likes Received:
    55,974
    Hey durvasa th. for replying I know we've had this discussion before. And I always enjoy it. I just want to say that I am in Breckinridge this weekend with only an iPhone. I always like to engage you on this per vs eff thing but I can't this weekend. I can't even read your last tables on this mobile
     
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,675
    Likes Received:
    2,959
    forgive the late bump but I was thinking of reasons gay has a low PER. I think from reading the formula PER takes into consideration time on the court and I have noticed that Gay does take plays off where he stands around and just watches.
     
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,489
    Likes Received:
    35,865
    That's exactly it - the Grizzlies halfcourt offense is either P&R's with the Conley/Allen whoever going to Gasol/Randolph, who will either shoot or pass or whatever, or give it to Gay on the wing and let him take a few dribbles and shoot the 14-20 footer. It's not that bad for their offense becuase it doesn't really disrupt the flow of the offense, and it gives the other guys some plays off, but it's sort of like a "dueling banjos" approach more than an integrated whole

    He's not really a great passer so he's not going to rack up assists and he's not a rebounder so not gonna get a lot of those either, but he plays a lot of minutes so his per-minute production isn't going to be high.
     
  14. Fullcourt

    Fullcourt Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2007
    Messages:
    7,306
    Likes Received:
    2,681
    I predict failure
     
    B-Bob likes this.
  15. J.R.

    J.R. Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    106,136
    Likes Received:
    152,709
  16. Clutch

    Clutch Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 1999
    Messages:
    22,603
    Likes Received:
    31,478
    I know he got pushed into a senior advisory role, but I wonder if he was pushed out of the Grizzlies altogether.
     
    Deuce and malakas like this.
  17. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2001
    Messages:
    19,116
    Likes Received:
    20,867
    I wonder if he was part of the thinking group that approved the Chandler Parsons deal.
     
    Spacemoth and malakas like this.
  18. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,452
    Likes Received:
    55,974
    Did he take heat for not pulling the Doncic Trade with ATL, instead of Dallas, since they had the higher #4 pick v Dallas with the #5.

    Dallas did Trade a 2019 first as well, which ended up being the #10 pick.
     
    malakas likes this.
  19. malakas

    malakas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    20,167
    Likes Received:
    15,380
    All the better for us fans, who can read his analytics again.
     
  20. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    53,279
    Likes Received:
    109,720
    The Grizzlies majority owner completely changed the power structure in the organization in April.

    He banished Wallace (the GM) all the way down to the scouting department.

    A group of lawyers now runs the basketball side of the equation with input from Glen Grunwald (who is only part time and works from home) and Tayshaun Prince.

    Hollinger didn't even have any input on the analytics anymore and Cho had taken that position.

    My understanding was that Hollinger was mostly still there because the owner didn't want to pay someone to work somewhere else.

    Hollinger had some bad misses when he had some say in the drafting/development of the organization.
     

Share This Page