John Forbes Kerry Refuses to Release Military Records

Well that sure answered my question.

 

Keep looking. I'm sure T_J is compensating you nicely for doing his research for him.

 

Dude come'on I never called you out, I just said there were disparaging comments made (and then I linked the first one I found), but I think I qualified them fairly for you guys. I gotta work too *looks over shoulder*.

 

Well, I am glad you noticed. Since my question was pretty straightforward, I was hoping that my motive would be clear...to know the answer to the question. I honestly don't even know if you are old enough to have voted in '96, otherwise I would have assumed the answer to be "yes." So, thanks for helping me answer my own question. I'll leave the thread now.

 

The issue of Kerry or GW Bush's service hasn't been that big of deal for me but in regards to people denigrating the services of the Reserves from my understanding of the Reserves is that the first Gulf War was the first time that the Reserves / National Guard was used overseas in combat and that the current situation in Iraq is the first time that Reserves / Nationa Guard have been used significantly. Having not served in the military myself I don't know if this is true or not but that is what I have heard.

If this is true then wouldn't the substantial difference in regards to intent was that Kerry volunteered knowingly to go into combat in Vietnam while GW Bush volunteered to serve in the Air National Guard knowing that he wouldn't go to Vietnam. Further while Kerry was in Vietnam he also volunteered to be reassigned from a relatively safe post on a missile frigate to an extremely dangerous post commanding a patrol boat that would harrass the enemy up rivers. While GW Bush was actively serving he also asked for another posting but one where he could work on a friend of the family's political campaign and where he would be even less active in flight training.

From bammaslammer's USA Today article

From bammaslammer's National Review Article

It seems to me that while there may be questions regarding each of their service it seems that Kerry voluteered to go into combat while GW Bush volunteered to avoid combat and even to get a posting where he would have even less responsibility in regards to combat preparedness.

 

Yeah I know. No harm no foul. Watch out for your manager!

 

Not true. The reserves have been used in every major conflict, including Korea, Vietnam and the Gulf War, among others. As for Bush opting for a safe posting, perhaps you need to do a little research on the fighter planes of the period, which often suffered non-combat, accidental losses in horrendous numbers due to the immaturity of technology at the time. In other words, he was probably better off going to 'Nam on the ground rather than flying the dangerous jets of the period!

The F-102 Bush flew did serve in Vietnam briefly, but was found to be rather useless in the theater and withdrawn. If you read the complete article, there were a glut of pilots not long after he joined up, so his leaving was actually in the best interests of the service, something which explains why I had to do a cross-continental move ( a rarity in the bi-coastal USMC where people from the East [Paris Island] don't go to the land of the Hollywood Marines [San Diego MCRD] very often) because they needed someone of my qualifications (see my MOS's below). Not long after I had to go to that godawful hellhole called Somalia.

My MOS's earned in 15 combined years of service
0311 Rifleman
0313 LAV Crewman
0321 Machine Gunner
0341 Mortarman
0351 Assaultman
0352 Antitank Assault Guided Missileman
0369 Infantry Unit Leader
8552 Close Combat Instructor-Trainer
8152 Marine Corps Security Force (MCSF) Guard
8530 Marksmanship Coach
8531 Marksmanship Instructor
8532 Small Arms Weapons Instructor

If you ask me, there are serious questions about Kerry's combat record, especially about his Purple Hearts. If he did receive a Purple Heart (my grandfather, who lost a leg and eye as a Marine, called them goddamned enemy marksmanship medals!) for a scratch (It's just a flesh wound!), he should be rightly pilloried. I've heard it said by Rush and it's quite true: no one who is truly great has to trumpet their greatness. It is apparent for all to see. Kerry has to repeatedly extoll his own virtues as a veteran at every opportunity. Draw from that what conclusions you will.

 

glynch.. if that is the case, thanks for informing me of that. I am young, I wasn't aware that the reserves used to not feed into the war if needed.

Technically they could be called up, but only if the draftees couldn't handle it, which was extremely unlikely. Of course all bets are off it the enemy were to land in Galveston.

 

Some of what's been said is a joke. To compare what the reserves are doing now in Iraq to what the reserves were in the age of Vietnam is a discredit to the reserves now. People who wanted to fulfill their military obligation but not serve in Viet Nam tried to get into the National Gaurd. That was common knowledge and to claim otherwise is misrepresenting the reality of the time. Saying that doesn't dishonor the guard of that age and it especially doesn't dishonor the reserves of today. But equating the reserves of the Viet Nam era with what the reserves of today are doing is a slight on the reserves of the day, because reserve duty then and today is not equal.

Kerry isn't just a war hero because of his wounds. Kerry is war hero because of lives saved, courage under fire, leadership, etc. If Kerry's war record shows that he did something wrong, then it's worth considering assessing a presidential candidate.

Bama, your was the greatest flawed argument of them all. Because Kerry came back and protested the war does not make him a traitor, but it makes him a patriot. It's no lie to claim that American soldiers committed war crimes during Viet Nam, because it's documented fact that they did. To point out wrong doing whether it's the war crimes or the war in general does not make somebody a traitor, but someone who will fight for what's right. It's especially true when that person saw and experienced first hand what the situation was.

I don't care what anyone's military experience was, unless they were there with Kerry. The people who served with Kerry are overwhelmingly supportive of his service during the war. They were the ones who were in combat with the guy, and experienced what he was like as a soldier, not anyone else.

If Kerry said he'd release all the records then he should do it. If the reords show that something was wrong then it would be a worthwhile discussion.

Bush on the other hand has one witness saying he saw Bush sreve in the guard in Alabamma. Bush's own records contradict the witnessess claim as far as when Bush was there. That warrants a little bit of discussion.

So far the worst anything can say about Kerry's war record is that perhaps he hasn't released it all yet.

 

So, if you had been old enough, would you have voted for Dole?

 

That's Rush Limbaugh? Man I hope it is, thats hilarious. Why didnt he serve in vietnam again? Anal warts?

 

Yes, on his nose. I think he's cured, however. At least he's not in pain.

 

Jorge's claim of victory is typically empty. Do you think he got this technique from his political heroes, Dubya and Orlando Sanchez?My clarification was not admitting error.

No substantive reply by Jorgecito, just self proclaimed victory.

Well let's see, Kerry has three purple hearts and is disclosing his records.
************
Kerry Campaign Provides Military Records
34 minutes ago

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Amid questions about his military records, John Kerry (news - web sites)'s campaign on Tuesday provided documentation of Vietnam War injuries that included shrapnel wounds to his arms, legs and buttocks that earned him three Purple Hearts.


Kerry spokesman Michael Meehan said the campaign was in the process of compiling the rest of Kerry's naval record and planned to begin posting it on Kerry's Web site by day's end. Kerry said all his military records are available to the public during an appearance Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Meehan said the Massachusetts senator and presumptive Democratic presidential nominee requested a copy of his record from the Navy last month and received roughly 150 pages last week.

Conservatives, talk radio and some newspapers editorials have questioned whether Kerry was deserving of the three Purple Hearts, fueling questions about his Navy service from 1966 to 1970 and the seriousness of his injuries.


He served two tours of duty, four months on the USS Gridley frigate off Vietnam's shore and nearly five months as a swiftboat commander in the Mekong Delta. He volunteered for the second tour and earned all his medals during the second stint.


Meehan gave The Associated Press 13 pages that included documentation for the Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts. The Boston Globe obtained some of the records last year for an extensive series on Kerry.



The documents also included declassified reports that briefly explain the injuries that led to Kerry's Purple Heart awards. They show Kerry had shrapnel wounds in his left thigh after his boat came under intense fire on Feb. 20, 1969, and he suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttock and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close to his boat on March 13, 1969.


The campaign could not locate a similar report for Kerry's original Purple Heart. As evidence that Kerry was wounded, Meehan showed The Associated Press a "Sick Call Treatment Record" from Kerry's personal files that included a brief written note dated Dec. 3, 1968, and stamped from the naval support facility at Cam Ranh Bay.


"Shrapnel in left arm above elbow. Shrapnel removed and appl bacitracin dressing. Ret to Duty," it said. The note is followed by a signature that appears to say "JCCarreon" and some illegible letters that Meehan said probably designate the medical official's rank.


Meehan said the campaign would allow a reporter to see the record at the campaign's headquarters, but not take a copy. He said it would not be made available to the public because Kerry considers it a private medical record.


Documentation for the second two injuries show that Kerry was deemed to be in good condition and returned to active duty after treatment. The documentation does not describe the severity of the injuries. A third Purple Heart meant Kerry could be reassigned out of Vietnam, and a document dated March 17, 1969, said Kerry requested duty as a personal aid in Boston, New York or the Washington, D.C., area.


Meehan said although Kerry could have asked to stay in Vietnam, it was the Navy's decision to request that he be reassigned. Kerry left the country in early April 1969.


Ken Mehlman, President Bush (news - web sites)'s campaign manager, accused Kerry's campaign of waffling on the release of his military records, saying the campaign's position on Tuesday to release the records in "due diligence" is contrary to Kerry's comments on "Meet the Press" that the records would be made public immediately.


"Senator Kerry's record of nondisclosure and his flip-flop on this issue should concern voters," Mehlman said.


Meehan responded, "Senator Kerry's record on the military is one we are running on, not running from. We are happy to compare Senator Kerry's record of service to anybody in the Bush campaign who has or has not served."


Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War, but did not serve in combat. Bush released hundreds of pages of his Vietnam-era military records in February to counter Democrats' suggestions that he shirked his duty in the Texas Air National Guard.


The White House said the documents comprise his entire military record. The records did not provide evidence that Bush was in Alabama during a period when Democrats have questioned whether he reported for service.

Kerry on Friday questioned Republicans who avoided the war and now criticize him on national security, but he didn't mention Bush.

"I fought under that flag and I saw that flag draped over the coffins of friends," Kerry said. "I'm tired of Karl Rove and Dick Cheney (news - web sites) and a bunch of people who went out of their way to avoid the chance to serve when they had the chance."

The Purple Heart is awarded to soldiers who are wounded or killed by enemy forces. The Silver Star is awarded for gallantry in action, and the Bronze Star is for heroic achievement.

Kerry received the Bronze Star for his actions after being wounded by the mine, which led to the third Purple Heart. According to his citation, one of Kerry's boatmates was thrown overboard and Kerry pulled him to safety with "his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his personal safety." Kerry and the man, retired Los Angeles police officer Jim Rassmann, had an emotional public reunion in January, two days before Kerry would win the Iowa caucuses.

link

 

He is a traitor not because he no longer supported the war, but because he lied in front of Congress and told of incidents that never happened. He tarred and feathered all our troops as baby-killers and rapists when those incidents were few and far between. That's patriotism to you? Helping the enemy win a propaganda victory and defeat spirits at home! I guess by your ridiculous rationale Tokoyo Rose was a patriot, eh? Sure.....

The Vietnam Veterans Against the War was one of the most radical anti-war groups and was nothing more than a Communist front or as Lenin said, "useful idiots." Read below and ask yourself whether or not he was simply an ambitious man scaling the backs of our troops over there in a war started by Democrats (His quote that blames the Nixon admin for the war is laughable.) He was part of an organization that provided aid and comfort to our enemies by destroying our will to win the war. Instead, we retreated with our tail between our legs, abandoned the South Vietnamese to the Communist wolves and lost 50,000 men, thousands of planes and helicopters and spent billions for....nothing.

link

 

Kerry didn't say that all viet nam vets were baby killers. He didn't help the enemy win anything. He did help us get out of a foolish war, and bring our troops home. Everyone who helped end that conflict out love for their country did the right thing.

 

He didn't, did he? Maybe you need to re-read that, eh?

Sounds like he's painting with a pretty broad brush there. General Giap (NVA leader) acknowledged the role that the anti-war movement had in helping the Commies win the war despite losing most every battle, especially during the Tet Offensive, a last ditch effort to achieve victory and wipe out a potential competitor in a reunited Vietnam (the VC). And you say that is not helping the enemy. There is no convincing you people, is there?

 

We are talking about the same Rush here who calls himself his network "Excellence In Broadcasting"? Talk about repeatedly extolling your own virtues.

I think its very obvious that Kerry is an ambituous climber who has sought issues and causes for his personal advancement(how many people who run for president aren't) but that IMO diminishes his heroism while in Vietnam. Your own articles paint a picture of a brave young man who didn't seek to avoid danger but on several occasions willingly put his life on the line. While I fully agree that he has many flaws but he is human afterall. Many of the greatest military heros have also had flaws with ambition being perhaps the most common. Think about MacArthur, Patton, Doolittle or Alexander the Great. Those weren't particularly humble guys or lacking in ambition.

OTOH GW Bush sought a posting that would not put him in the line of fire and while aircraft safety 30 years ago wasn't as good as it was now I'm certain that the rate of fatalities was nowhere near troops serving in combat during Vietnam. If you believe it was I would certainly like to see evidence of that.

I don't think GW Bush is a bad person for not serving in combat but I don't think his record is anywhere near comparable in terms of bravery and heroism to Kerry's.

Also on a personal note I salute you on your military record its very impressive and something to be proud of. Even though I never served in the military I've trained people who have and I have the upmost respect for those who serve.