John Forbes Kerry Refuses to Release Military Records

RocketMan Tex · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
Of course they were made. That's why RocketmanTex isn't denying it.
Click to expand...

Why would I deny something I don't even remember?

Find it, post it, and prove it, Liar_Jorge!!

El_Conquistador · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
Why would I deny something I don't even remember?
Click to expand...

So you are saying there is a *chance* that you said it? Ha! You are getting closer and closer to finally admitting it!! Hilarious. You said it, you know you did, but you are just holding out hope that no one will go looking for it. Pretty sad, actually.

Chump · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by bamaslammer
TJ has a point. The liberals, through their bashing of Bush's guard service, have acted as if the reserves are some kind of second-class outfit when nothing could be farther from the truth. In their sad attempt to pin anything on Bush to cover up their candidate's lack of any sort of substance, they have tarred a fine group of Americans. I served in the USMC reserves for five years after 10 years of active duty while I was in college and lemme tell, they are Marines no different than the ones I served with on active duty.

link
Click to expand...

simple concepts just fly over the crazy nut job's heads round here

find ONE SINGLE STATEMENT that blasts the reserves and makes their service to our country 2nd rate

easy enough challenge since you say its so prevelant

bamaslammer · Apr 20, 2004

Kerry is not a hero, folks. He put the paperwork for his own purple hearts!

Vietnam lessons shape Kerry as a leader
By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY
John Kerry stood in the pilothouse of his swift boat as it churned noisily up the mangrove-choked Dong Cung River in Vietnam's Ca Mau Peninsula. The young lieutenant inhaled the sweet fragrance of wood fires and the pungent odor of fish sauce. But his thoughts were on the ambush that most surely lay ahead.

"We were one helluva target," Kerry recalls, 35 years after serving in Vietnam. For nearly three months, his lightly armed patrol boats had been sitting ducks for Viet Cong snipers. The usual response was to clear the ambush zone and shoot back from a safer distance. Sailors stayed on board.

But the young officer had a more "creative" plan on Feb. 28, 1969. This time, Kerry beached his boat toward the attacking VC. He jumped ashore, chased a startled, armed guerrilla and killed him. Crewmates say the audacious move saved their lives. Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, the Navy's third-highest combat award.

"He was hard-charging," recalls Del Sandusky, the senior enlisted sailor who drove Patrol Craft Fast (PCF) 94 that day. "Kerry thought offense was the best defense."

The fierceness Kerry exhibited then is on display as the Massachusetts senator battles President Bush in what is already a nasty campaign. While Bush has been forced to defend his service in the Texas Air National Guard, Kerry has willingly conjured up his past as a combat-tested Mekong Delta skipper. Campaign ads feature footage of him in the jungle. Kerry, 60, says his actions then inform his leadership now.

"I was a good leader, a strong leader. I had strong awareness and perception of the things around me. I listened. I took things in," Kerry said in a 50-minute interview. "I was decisive."

Interviews with 18 officers and enlisted sailors who served with Kerry in Vietnam mostly portray a young leader with an aggressive command style. Many recall a warm, compassionate officer who cared deeply about his working-class crew. They also remember a warrior who ferried pregnant women and hungry villagers down river for medical care and food.

They recall how he initiated water-balloon fights to break the tension. How he asked his crew to call him "John" on the river and "sir" back at base. And how he listened to their problems in a way that foretold a career in politics.

"His concern for us was overwhelming," says Fred Short, a PCF-94 gunner's mate who would get the shakes when the adrenaline of battle wore off. "He would come around then and put his hand on your shoulder and ask if you're all right," says Short, 56, of North Little Rock "I never had another officer do that."

Ambitious self-promoter?

Asmaller number of veterans remember an ambitious self-promoter who left Vietnam after only four months, his ticket out the three Purple Hearts he earned for minor wounds. They recall a budding politician who, at just 25, already had an eye on posterity and would write about his experiences for hours rather than join fellow officers at the beach or for a beer. They say it was no accident that Kerry volunteered for swift boats, the Vietnam equivalent of John Kennedy's PT-109 in World War II.

"John was a master at looking out for John," says Larry Thurlow, a fellow boat commander. "John has never been bashful about saying, 'Man, I'm a war hero.' "

Yet, except for one crewmate, even those who felt betrayed by Kerry for later leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War and who call themselves Bush supporters acknowledge that he showed courage under fire. "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point," Thurlow says.

Douglas Brinkley, whose Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War mined Kerry's letters and other writings, says the senator has long suffered jealousy of his wealth and intelligence, even of his JFK initials.

"He's a very passionate person, and nothing is he more passionate about than Vietnam," Brinkley says. "Vietnam is part of this guy's makeup."

In his senior year at Yale, Kerry signed on as a Navy officer. He joined several equally privileged friends with the means to avoid the draft who volunteered for the military. He would lose six close friends by war's end.

Kerry's first tour in early 1968, aboard the guided-missile frigate USS Gridley off the coast of Vietnam, proved a bore. He wanted his own command and volunteered for swift boats, the 50-foot, aluminum-clad crafts that patrolled the relatively safe Vietnamese coast.

A new, dangerous mission

But shortly after arriving at Cam Ranh Bay in November 1968, he was assigned to Operation Sealords. The new mission sent six-man boats deep into Viet Cong territory to "show the flag" and harass enemy forces who controlled the dense, remote jungles south of Saigon.

Vice Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, the Navy's commander in Vietnam, later wrote that Sealords sailors had a 75% casualty rate.

"The level of danger was extremely high," says Jim Rassmann, the Army Special Forces officer who rode PCF-94 for nearly a month before Kerry saved his life during a ferocious river battle. The noisy boats "had no place to hide. People could hear them coming a half-mile away."

Ambushes were a constant. Viet Cong lurked among civilians. Boat officers were given wide berth in "free-fire" zones where troops were allowed to shoot first and ask questions later. Kerry preferred caution unless fired upon.

"He wouldn't let you go randomly down the river shooting up everything in sight," says Stephen Hatch, who served on the first of Kerry's two boats.

Still, innocents were sometimes killed. One pitch-black night, Kerry's PCF-94 stopped a Vietnamese sampan boat after curfew in a free-fire zone. Kerry told his gunner to fire a warning round, but in the ensuing confusion the entire crew began shooting. Moments later, they learned to their horror that they had killed a small child, the limp body already covered by the child's mother. Although they had done nothing technically wrong, Kerry refused to uncover the body for fear, he later wrote, that the face would haunt him forever.

"The image of that child on that pile of rice in the night will never leave me," he says. "And the terror in the eyes of the faces of civilians. The look of our own wounded, and seeing someone carrying a human being in two halves. Those things stay with you."

Such incidents convinced Kerry and other officers that the river excursions, which took no terrain but resulted in many casualties, made more enemies than friends. But the missions continued.

On the February 1969 mission to transport South Vietnamese troops deep into enemy territory, three boats under Kerry's tactical command came under small-arms fire. But this time, the convoy did the unexpected.

"Zero-Nine-Zero. All boats turn," Kerry ordered. Whipping sharply to shore, the boats terrified the ambushers, who were quickly overwhelmed. The tactic, Kerry recalled, "worked superbly."

Hearing shots ahead, Kerry headed farther up the river, where his boat was attacked a second time. Kerry signaled Sandusky, his driver, to ram the shoreline again. They hit just 10 feet from a bamboo-covered spider hole. A panicked guerrilla wearing a loincloth and wielding a B-40 rocket launcher sprang up and started to run.

Kerry jumped onto the bank and chased him. The guerrilla fell when his leg was grazed by fire, but quickly got up and ran down a path. He was about to duck out of sight behind a hut when Kerry "dispatched him" with his M-16, says radio operator Michael Medeiros, who followed close behind.

Some critics have cited remarks at the time by George Elliott, Kerry's division commander, for sparking questions about Kerry's actions. After the battle, Elliott says he cracked "tongue-in-cheek" that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry or give him a medal. But in a recent interview, he was clear: "This was an exemplary action. There's no question about it."

In an evaluation written in late 1969, Elliott said Kerry's decisiveness was "unsurpassed" and he was an "acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach."

"When he recognizes a threat or problem that is serious, many of us would become defensive and perhaps try to move ourselves from the threat," says Skip Barker, a retired Navy captain who met Kerry during swift boat training in Coronado, Calif. "John's reaction is different. It gets his attention. He focuses on it and goes after it."

Friends and foes

Not everyone agrees. Stephen Gardner, a gunner's mate on PCF-44, spoke out for the first time last month after hearing conservative radio commentator Rush Limbaugh question Kerry's war credentials. Gardner, who says "this country's in a world of trouble" if the Democrat is elected president, calls Kerry a "hesitant" commander who shunned danger.

Gardner, 56, claims Kerry retreated during a firefight under the pretense that he wanted to get Gardner medical attention. "It was a panic run," says Gardner, who calls his wound superficial. While he refuses to call Kerry a coward, he recalls "a guy who was protecting himself most of the time."

That view does not square with the recollections of eight other enlisted sailors who served with Kerry and were interviewed for this story. Kerry and other PCF-44 veterans say the shooting was over when they turned back to base.

"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says.

"I have no idea where he's coming from," Kerry says of Gardner.

Rassmann also dismisses the idea of a cautious Kerry. He says he is alive today because of Kerry's courage during a vicious battle in March 1969. The special forces soldier had been blown off PCF-94 by a mine that also injured Kerry's right arm. Swimming in the river while being strafed from both banks, Rassmann was convinced he was about to die before Kerry's boat returned. As the soldier struggled to climb scramble nets draped over the boat's bow, Kerry reached down with his uninjured arm and pulled him on board.

"He was frankly nuts coming up to the bow and exposing himself" to the barrage of bullets and mortars, Rassmann says. The two met in an emotional reunion in Iowa in January after Rassmann called the campaign and offered to appear at an event. It became a pivotal moment in Kerry's comeback, which culminated days later in the state's caucuses.

Rassmann, a Republican, now works on Kerry's campaign. But a few other Vietnam veterans have spread stories — some of which Thurlow admits are "hearsay" — on conservative Web sites.

Kerry says his war record has become "a target of right-wing revisionism." His campaign is considering legal action against what officials call lies and slander spread on the Internet. The accusations range from calling him a "baby killer" to questioning whether he legitimately earned his Purple Hearts. "I'm not going to suffer someone on the Internet playing games," Kerry says. "They weren't there and don't know what the hell they're talking about."

Tedd Peck, who skippered PCF-94 before being wounded and giving way to Kerry, says he "had a dislike for the man as soon as I met him. He was not a genuine type of guy." Peck, 60, never went on a mission with Kerry; PCF-94's enlisted sailors compare his leadership style unfavorably to Kerry's. But Peck charges that Kerry "politicked" for his first Purple Heart after being wounded Dec. 2, 1968.
Three Purple Hearts and out

Questions about Kerry's award may be relevant because Navy regulations stated that sailors wounded three times, "regardless of the nature of the wound or treatment required," were eligible to go home early. Kerry left after just four months of his second tour.

Grant Hibbard, the division commander, says he initially rejected Kerry's first Purple Heart because he only had a "little scratch" on his arm and a "squiggly" one-eighth-inch shrapnel shard in his left hand. A Navy "sick call" sheet provided by the Kerry campaign shows that he was treated the next day for shrapnel in his left arm above the elbow.

"It just didn't seem to warrant" a Purple Heart, Hibbard says. He later "acquiesced" after receiving "some correspondence" — he doesn't remember from whom — and because he was going home soon and didn't feel like fighting it.

Kerry doesn't remember Hibbard or the conversation but does recall "someone raising a question" about the award. If he asked for the award, he says, it was because he didn't realize Purple Hearts were given automatically and not at the discretion of commanders. "They decided to award it," he says. "I'm not going to rehash a judgment made by the Navy 35 years ago."

Nor will he apologize for serving less than a year. By the time Kerry says commanders told him he could go home, the young lieutenant had decided that he wanted to work to end the war.

"Some people don't like the fact I went back and spoke out against the war," Kerry says. "These guys are working overtime searching for something destructive, trying to tie me to all kinds of things. I know my record. It will stand."
Click to expand...

link
Went back and spoke against the war? Kerry, you godawful scumbag traitor, you betrayed everyone who wore the uniform with your lies in front of Congress, accusing our troops of war crimes. It is one thing to oppose a useless war, but to actively advocate that your brethern are the propaganda devils the Communists depicted them is providing aid and comfort to our enemies. And you liberals want to elect this traitor president? Well, you nominated one twice (Clinton), so it is par for the course with you people.

Rocket Fan · Apr 20, 2004

The thing is I believe Kerry served his duty, just like Bush. The military thought he should get purple hearts so that's fine. They also gave him the discharge so they found him to serve honorably. BUT, why doesn't that hold for Bush? He was given a honorable discharge, but everyone wants to tear him apart? Why can you all question him, but not Kerry? And the reason shouldn't be "Kerry served on active duty, bush didn't".. the response to any questioning of kerry usually ends up in, "well bush didn't serve active duty"

Chump · Apr 20, 2004

how many tours in Vietnam did Bush serve again?

RocketMan Tex · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
So you are saying there is a *chance* that you said it? Ha! You are getting closer and closer to finally admitting it!! Hilarious. You said it, you know you did, but you are just holding out hope that no one will go looking for it. Pretty sad, actually.
Click to expand...

I've got a better idea, Mr. Time is Money.

You posted, earlier in this thread, the following:

Originally posted by Trader_Jorge
I can specifically recall RocketmanTex making references to Bush "patrolling the skies of Texas" while others were in Vietnam.
Click to expand...

I suggest that you prove that I actually said what you attributed to me earlier in this thread.

If you can't, then you are lying, and an apology is in order.

ima_drummer2k · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by Rocket Fan
BUT, why doesn't that hold for Bush? He was given a honorable discharge, but everyone wants to tear him apart? Why can you all question him, but not Kerry?
Click to expand...

Because Bush is an EVIL Republican.

Chump · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by ima_drummer2k
Because Bush is an EVIL Republican.
Click to expand...

your statement is reduntant, all republicans are evil

GladiatoRowdy · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by Chump
your statement is reduntant, all republicans are evil
Click to expand...

Not true, John McCain rocks!

Gary Johnson is pretty cool, too.

Rocket Fan · Apr 20, 2004

chump none, no one is saying he did. People just would like to know why Kerry won't release the rest of the information

glynch · Apr 20, 2004

White House communications director Dan Bartlett, in a telephone interview, contrasted Bush's action with that of Kerry's. "The president made a pledge before the American people, and he made his complete file available to the media and the public," Bartlett said

I don't believe this is true. That is why there is still confusion as to whether Bush showed up for a year and a half. There is no confusion as to whether Kerry showed up for duty all the time.

People are injured in the military. Whether to get a purple heart is sometimes questionable. If I'm not mistaken Kerry has two purple hearts including one for the action in which he got the Silver Cross?

It is laughable to try to make this an issue.

Jorge is either ignorant of the matter or most likely not old enough to realize that during the Vietnam War it was only those who had some sort of pull that got into the Guard. The Guard did not go to war at that time, like they do now so it was for those who were trying to avoid fighting in Vietnam. Hence there is understandable derision for those who like Bush don military uniforms, have photo ops on aircraft carriers and talk tough, but took the easy way out to avoid combat.

Chump · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by andymoon
Not true, John McCain rocks!

Gary Johnson is pretty cool, too.
Click to expand...

your right, i was being facetious

I like those two gentlemen very much

I saw the Sammy Hagar/David Lee Roth tour in Albuquerque a couple years ago when Johnson was still gov, Gary Johnson was up on stage in Sammy's Cabo Wabo on stange lil catina, he was rockin out!

bamaslammer · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by Chump
your right, i was being facetious

I like those two gentlemen very much

I saw the Sammy Hagar/David Lee Roth tour in Albuquerque a couple years ago when Johnson was still gov, Gary Johnson was up on stage in Sammy's Cabo Wabo on stange lil catina, he was rockin out!
Click to expand...

You forget Rep. Ron Paul of Texas, the nation's only libertarian representative.

Rocket Fan · Apr 20, 2004

glynch.. if that is the case, thanks for informing me of that. I am young, I wasn't aware that the reserves used to not feed into the war if needed.

Like I said, there isn't a reason to bash Kerry with regards to his military record because he did what he had to do to get a purple heart. If you are injured you can get one, he had an injury even if it was minor or whatever.

I just don't see a reason if you have the purple hearts etc to not release the specifics. I've just heard different remarks about how they are minor etc so I'd like to know what they really were. It doesn't make too much of a difference because he did get injured in any case, it would just be nice to know some more details.

I recall the Kerry camp wanting Bush to release all the records, I just don't see why he doesn't release them. I don't expect anything bad to come out of them, because he has the honorable discharge etc , so he couldn't have done anything too bad. I just don't see why not release them all and not leave anyone with questions. He has the purple hearts etc so I really cant' see how the records would hurt him any

twhy77 · Apr 20, 2004

Originally posted by RocketMan Tex
I've got a better idea, Mr. Time is Money.

You posted, earlier in this thread, the following:

I suggest that you prove that I actually said what you attributed to me earlier in this thread.

If you can't, then you are lying, and an apology is in order.
Click to expand...

Here's the first thing I found, not attributed to you but Larry David, I hope the link works....

http://bbs2.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73147

El_Conquistador · Apr 20, 2004

Chump, defend yourself. Why did you post that? Do you consider service in the National Guard to not be honorable?

rimbaud · Apr 20, 2004

Hey TJ,

Did you vote for Dole in '96?

El_Conquistador · Apr 20, 2004

Hey Rimbeaux, don't you think it is right for Forbes Kerry to release records after Forbes Kerry *demanded* that Bush release records? Is there a way to describe Forbes Kerry's current actions as anything but hypocritical?

Sishir Chang · Apr 20, 2004

bammaslammer;

I definately do not want to see GW Bush reelected but have also been very uneasy about Kerry. Kerry's war record has never been a major issue to me either way and in fact the article you posted from USA Today was the first time I've read much about Kerry's experience in Vietnam.

If your intention was to degrade Kerry by making people question his experience in Vietnam its had the opposite effect on me. I found the stories gripping and I'm more impressed with Kerry the man now than I was before I read that article.

Some critics have cited remarks at the time by George Elliott, Kerry's division commander, for sparking questions about Kerry's actions. After the battle, Elliott says he cracked "tongue-in-cheek" that he didn't know whether to court-martial Kerry or give him a medal. But in a recent interview, he was clear: "This was an exemplary action. There's no question about it."

In an evaluation written in late 1969, Elliott said Kerry's decisiveness was "unsurpassed" and he was an "acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach."

"When he recognizes a threat or problem that is serious, many of us would become defensive and perhaps try to move ourselves from the threat," says Skip Barker, a retired Navy captain who met Kerry during swift boat training in Coronado, Calif. "John's reaction is different. It gets his attention. He focuses on it and goes after it."
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised that there were some who resented Kerry and thought he was an ambitious social climber. I can't imagine anyone who plans on going into public service wouldn't be but what struck me was that even the people who didn't like him refused to call him a coward.

While he refuses to call Kerry a coward, he recalls "a guy who was protecting himself most of the time."

That view does not square with the recollections of eight other enlisted sailors who served with Kerry and were interviewed for this story. Kerry and other PCF-44 veterans say the shooting was over when they turned back to base.
Click to expand...

One soldier he felt he was protecting himself but none of them dispute that Kerry on a other occasions did extraordinarly brave things. While the another officer who disliked him never actually served with him.

Tedd Peck, who skippered PCF-94 before being wounded and giving way to Kerry, says he "had a dislike for the man as soon as I met him. He was not a genuine type of guy." Peck, 60, never went on a mission with Kerry ; PCF-94's enlisted sailors compare his leadership style unfavorably to Kerry's. But Peck charges that Kerry "politicked" for his first Purple Heart after being wounded Dec. 2, 1968.
Click to expand...

I was also impressed about that Kerry along with other friends from well off backgrounds volunteered to go to Vietnam when they could have easily avoided it and that he even volunteered to serve in extremely hazardous duty.

In his senior year at Yale, Kerry signed on as a Navy officer. He joined several equally privileged friends with the means to avoid the draft who volunteered for the military. He would lose six close friends by war's end.
...
"The level of danger was extremely high," says Jim Rassmann, the Army Special Forces officer who rode PCF-94 for nearly a month before Kerry saved his life during a ferocious river battle. The noisy boats "had no place to hide. People could hear them coming a half-mile away."
Click to expand...

Rather than raising questions about Kerry's service in Vietnam I think your article puts those to rest because IMO it paints an picture of an officer who although having some personal flaws still voluntarily served with distinction in a hazardous situation.

Forums

John Forbes Kerry Refuses to Release Military Records

RocketMan Tex Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

Chump Member

bamaslammer Member

Rocket Fan Member

Chump Member

RocketMan Tex Member

ima_drummer2k Member

Chump Member

GladiatoRowdy Member

Rocket Fan Member

glynch Member

Chump Member

bamaslammer Member

Rocket Fan Member

twhy77 Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

rimbaud Member
Supporting Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

Sishir Chang Member

Share This Page

About ClutchFans

Rockets Content

Support ClutchFans!

John Forbes Kerry Refuses to Release Military Records

RocketMan Tex Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

Chump Member

bamaslammer Member

Rocket Fan Member

Chump Member

RocketMan Tex Member

ima_drummer2k Member

Chump Member

GladiatoRowdy Member

Rocket Fan Member

glynch Member

Chump Member

bamaslammer Member

Rocket Fan Member

twhy77 Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

rimbaud Member Supporting Member

El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

Sishir Chang Member

Share This Page

rimbaud Member
Supporting Member