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Jim Webb in the WSJ-Class Struggle

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by gifford1967, Nov 16, 2006.

  1. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Um, 6 years is not that "short term," it is the amount of time that the GOP has been running things. That, in itself, is enough to say that they seem to care only about improving the lives of the rich at the expense of the rest of us.
     
  2. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Untrue. Since the progressive income tax was introduced, they have seen their tax rates drop by 66% while the rest of us have seen no net reduction in our income taxes while we have seen significant increases in payroll taxes.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    No, it's not. Circumventing the law is fraud. A loophole is a law working not quite as intended. Odd that you would claim someone else doesn't know what they are talking about.

    I never claimed it did. I said it benefited the rich.

    Yes, and the poor don't itemize deductions as much because they don't have enough total deductions.

    Yes, what's your point?


    What does that have to do with anything?

    Loopholes that benefit the wealthy also benefit the very wealthy. I thought that was obvious.
     
  4. Major

    Major Member

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    Funny. Of course, I'm not talking about a website, but whatever.

    No, I don't just fall into the class of idiotic moron. If you survey most small business owners, you will find a concern for their employees' wellbeing. Don't try to project your selfishness onto others. The VAST majority of small business owners do not rate maximizing profits as their #1 motive. Lifestyle and reasonable income rate far higher. But in your little theory-bubble, of course you wouldn't have the first clue about small business owners.
     
  5. Major

    Major Member

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    Mrs. Median, yes. Mr. Median is making less than they were 20 years ago. Is 20 years short-term?
     
  6. Major

    Major Member

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    That's because they make a larger percentage of the total income than any other time in history. As a share, they pay less.
     
  7. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    I'm talking about the share of total taxes paid.

    http://marketplace.publicradio.org/shows/2006/04/26/PM200604264.html

     
  8. Major

    Major Member

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    By the way, that "dump" on the Drag is called a mailbox. If you knew anything about small business, you would realize that the drag is prime real estate, and it would be a colossal waste to put an internet business there. Strange that someone with so little clue about the world of small business would comment so much on it, especially after railing on Jim Webb supposedly for commenting on something he's not an expert on.
     
  9. Major

    Major Member

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    This is VERY misleading. It's measuring the % of taxes paid by people making $200k or more. But every year, simply due to inflation (ignoring the rising disparities in income), the number of people making $200k or more increases, so of course that number *should* rise every single year. Making $200k today is the equivalent of making ~$150k 10 years ago due to inflation, so if you want to make comparisons, you have to take that into account.
     
  10. weslinder

    weslinder Member

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    If you look at it in percentages, you get a very similar result. I just don't have that data in front of me.
     
  11. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    As Major said, that is a direct result of their having doubled the amount of money that they make from 8% of the nations earnings to 16%. Then, their share of taxes has risen by 6% "in recent years," hardly the doubling of their earnings since 1980.

    No matter how you slice it, the rich are getting FAR richer and the rest of us on average are treading water or sinking. And that trend only got worse when the GOP was in charge. At least from 1980 to 2000, the median family income was on a generally upward trend. Since GWB took over, the median income has fallen while the top 1% have seen their earnings skyrocket.

    I have said it before and will say it again, trickle down (supply side) economics is where the government gives money to the rich and the rich piss all over the rest of us.
     
  12. deepblue

    deepblue Member

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    You are talking about taxing wealth not income then, because the Gates/Buffetts are in the top 0.01% because of the wealth they already have. I guess you support we tax 50% on capital gains, that would be a great idea. :rolleyes:
     
  13. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    No, but I do support the 50% estate tax on estates of the very rich.

    Capital gains tax should pretty closely mirror the income tax rate for that amount of capital gain (a person with a $20K capital gain should add that to their income and the gain should be taxed at their income tax rate).

    As it stands, according to Buffett, capital gains tax is 15%, so a million dollar capital gain is taxed at a FAR lower rate than the same million earned in wages.
     
  14. deepblue

    deepblue Member

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    Of course the very poor can't use the itemized deduction, but the very poor also pay no income tax, so what's your point. If we are talking about middle class Americans, they own house, they send their kids to daycare, they have medical expenses, they pay state/local taxes, are you telling me they can't use itemized deduction? I am pretty sure all middle class Americans who owns a house will be using their mortgage interest deduction.

    And I am still waiting for your tax loophole example, still can't come up with just one? (really, I'd love to pay less taxes)
     
  15. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is just some random snapshot data, but it illustrates why, IMO, the Republican propaganda about our booming economy didn't resonate with the average voter last week. A lot of this is due to the policies of the last 6 years, which stack the deck in favor of one side, and this perpetuates itself.

    John Edwards, a few years ago, used to make the "Two Americas" a big campaign theme, he was exactly right and is increasingly so.
     
  16. RocketMan Tex

    RocketMan Tex Member

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    And I hope he repeats it in 2008 when he runs for the Dem nomination. He will attract alot of support from alot of people who have lost ground since 2000.
     
  17. deepblue

    deepblue Member

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    There might be some valid point on both side about the estate tax. I do think lower capital gain tax help business investment, increases liquidity and helps economy in general.

    The main point I am arguing about is this "income tax loopholes" rhetoric, because I would love to use the supposed loopholes to lower my tax rate.
     
  18. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    I think that's correct, even under the old regime of "high" capital gains taxes favored by the evil, communist democrats, I believe the CGT rate (at least back in the late 90's) was a staggering 23%, lower than the aggregate or marginal rate on $1m in wages.
     
  19. Master Baiter

    Master Baiter Member

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    I do not support an estate tax in any way, shape, or form. I've busted my ass to make the money that I have and I want my kids to have it. The loops that I have to jump through to make sure that the government doesn't get 50% of what I have when I die is insane. I made that money, I paid taxes on that money, I busted my ASS to make that money. My family DESERVES that money, not half of it.

    I am very torn on the whole issue of taxes and loopholes. I am all for helping the under priviledged and I am all for a national healthcare system. I also try to do everything I can to work these loopholes to my advantage. I am all for trying to make my money work for me as much as I possibly can. I didn't come from a priviledged family and I've done everything on my own to be successful. I have a high school education and feel I do pretty damn well and it is all because I worked my ass off. There are plenty of other people that could work their asses off a little bit more and live within their means.

    I think most of it comes down to priorities. If making money and being successful is a priority then you are going to make the right decisions with your money and learn the system. Is it complicated? Yes and no. I'd give my left nut to have the economic knowledge of someone like T_J but there is plenty of information out there for people like myself to take advantage of the situation that we have. If you make $10 an hour, live paycheck to paycheck, have debt, little or no savings, you shouldn't buy a flat screen TV. You should spend every dollar that you make paying your debt down and building savings. It doesn't cost a damn thing to open an IRA account. It isn't rocket science to invest in DRIP's and index funds. There is a ton of information on how to pay off debt, save money, invest money, and secure your future. It is just not a priority for the vast majority of people. They just do not take advantage of it and are too lazy to educate themselves and then APPLY it to their lives. It is hard work to be responsible especially when you don't have much money but it is very possible.

    I definitely feel that it could be better but I also don't think it is as horrible as some make it out to be.
     
  20. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    I thought setting a 5million or whatever limit on estate tax is pretty fair. So I guess by your definition Gates shouldn't pay anything either, it doesn't matter if you do not really need the 50 billion dollars for the next ten generation of your family. Maybe I am wrong on this, but I think there are some social responsibility that goes with the wealth at the very top.
     

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