On ex cathedra matters, yes. Now, I would say I strive to be a Catholic, always trying to reform myself towards that goal, but the real Catholic can only come from being in communion with the Eucharist. I applaud liberals for their dedication to social programs and helping of the poor. I often disagree on the prudentiality of those programs (and I'm definitely not against all of them), i.e. teach a man to fish, etc. but the goal is the same, and also because I don't neccessarily believe the rich live infinitely better lives. In fact, I would argue the opposite, the rich have a much harder time finding God's word in their daily lives. I don't really take issue with those things so much as the abortion issue. And to answer your question before you ask it, capital punishment is not against church teaching, even though I'm not in favor of it in America.
I rarely point out grammatical errors, and when I do, it is typically in response to another poster insulting my grammar or spelling and in that insult, making several errors. Now, MacBeth on the other hand, somehow has time to post as much as he does yet has no time whatsoever to proofread. That my friends, is more than fingers simply going astray, the excuse he primarily uses.
but since there was only one would that make it a grammatical error. Just doesn't sound right but then again, they never taught grammar in AP English.
Why can't you separate LEGALITY from MORALITY? There are many immoral actions that are legal you know. Do you wish to outlaw them all? Do you not the problem in this? Did prohibition, etc. teach us nothing? Is it not enough to agree an action is immoral? Do we have to have the power of the state to enforce it through prisons, etc? Are you to be denied communion etc. if you do not think the state has to enforce your beliefs?
And yet you go off and judge Kerry (inferring he is not a Catholic) based on his opinion that it is wrong to turn back the clock by the "outlawing of a procedure necessary to save a woman's life or health and there are no more cutbacks on population control efforts around the world." Yet one more in the long list of reasons that the Catholic church is in its decline. That's funny, I know LOTS of pro-choice Republicans, Catholics, and Christians. Care to judge them because they do not kowtow to those that you think have a direct line to God?
But if the belief holds, and he believes then this is a person, which he has done apparently (although not really thanks to the quote I dug up), wouldn't it then be a legal question about the right to life? This is not a question of morality at the point where he says it is a life.
That's odd, twhy77, when I was going to Catholic school, nobody ever said that the ultimate arbiter of who was Catholic or not was the USCCB, it was generally thought of that Jesus and God held that title....I must have missed the one where they were allowed to become the official church bouncers! Anyway, I had a depressing feeling that your argument would break down to a stringent "anybody who isn't pro life, isn't catholic!!!!" (presumably, that would include people who vote for pro-choice politicians). Incidentally, if you don't think that this is a "holier-than-thou" attitude, you must have a different comprehension of the term. Since you like bright line rules, and feel comfortable judging others to be Catholic, or "Catholic", can I pose a few hypotheticals? Please assume the following individuals all go to church on sunday and live otherwise normal, non mortal sinning lives: 1. A politician who votes for the war in Iraq but opposes abortion (note, the war in Iraq was opposed by the Pope, and accordingly a hell of a lot higher authority in church terms than USSCB who apparently -- despite his infirmity - still feels it was not justified. http://www.americancatholic.org/News/JustWar/Iraq/) 2. A politician who opposes abortion yet strongly favors (and votes for the expansion of the death penalty) (note, the Pope is opposed to this as well http://www.cathnews.com/news/312/10.php) 3. A politician who opposes abortion and the death penalty and the war yet favors sex education (including birth control) in schools. (birth control, banned by the Pope since 68! http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/29/newsid_2975000/2975206.stm) 4. A homosexual judge who strikes down a ban on gay marriage yet opposes abortion and the death penalty. (gay marriage = another no-no http://www.cathnews.com/news/306/54.php) How about it, twhy77, Catholic, or "Catholic"? And why or why not?
Actually the Catholic church (as per the Pope) is against capital punishment except in those extremely rare cases where a society cannot adequately protect itself from a killer. In other words, capital punishment should not exist in any industrial country that can lock folks up. A few years ago, the Pope had this to say: "I renew the appeal I made most recently at Christmas for a consensus to end the death penalty, which is both cruel and unnecessary," he said. "Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform."
Which does not include abortion, despite what zealots may claim. http://www.ncregister.com/Register_News/021202sca.htm
Andy I gotta be honest with you, I don't even know if this is worth replying to. But I will. How is saying Kerry is a "Catholic" passing judgement on him? Can you please elucidate my simple mind on this one? Wow a religion with 1 Billion people around the world is on the decline? Sweet! And we're procreating like wabbits! And all I'm saying is, the church is denying communion to those who are clearly violating church teaching. It is saying they are out of communion with the beliefs we hold. I don't really get how I am judging them by understanding what my church is teaching.
You are making the claim that Kerry is not a true Catholic (through use of the quotation marks) and are inferring that he lacks the status of a Catholic because he doesn't believe that we should turn back the clock on legal abortion. YOU are saying that Kerry is not worthy of the label of Catholic. That is a judgement (on a person) and by your admission, that judgement is left to God.
Forget the law. This should be about personal beliefs, understandings and descisions. I do not think it is wise to enforce moral belifes thourgh violent means. I do not have that right as a "Catholic"? I do not think abortion is a "good" action. I also do not think trying to enforce this belief though the use of prisons, etc. is a good action. Where does that leave me as a "Catholic"?
One of the historical issues people have taken with the Catholic Church is it's practice of inserting itself between God and the people in the manner of both interpreter and judge. One of the many negative reults which have occurred beacue of this has been the propensity for temporal motivations to be couched in religious teaching, and passed on to believers as dogma. Urban's claim that soldiers who went and killed Muslims ( man, women, or children) would instantly recieve Heavenly reservations is just one of the more extreme examples, but their treatment of Gallileo, the acts of the Conquistadors, etc, all defy any correlation with the teachings of Christ. Furthermore, how is any sane person to accpet the infallibility of the Pope ( over time rephrased to be exclusive only to 'matters of faith', which in and of themselves are reclassified as previous Papal positions are ruled incorrect bu Science, moral evolution, etc.) on wordly matters, the basis for the unquestioning obedience twhy is advocating, given the historical innaccuracies of the source, not to mention the atrocities built thereupon. It's not enough to simply say " The Church is made of humans and humans aren't perfect", because the basis fo some of these actions has been religious dictates, bulls, and whatnot. If Popes were fallible in the past, how can anyone expect them to be infallible now? And if you can't, where is the foundationg for the devotion, not to Christ, but to the institutional interpretations of the RCC.
Wrong paste. http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Papal_infallibility I'm still waiting for a response to my other hypotheticals. Catholic or "Catholic"?
No time to respond to this right now. Need to work, will deal with it later as these are good points you bring up and they need to be addressed in their proper context, and my condemation was more along the lines of Kerry was brought up Catholic but really lacks an understanding of the faith, to which I'm willing to say I was wrong on.
WRONG. I'm saying Kerry is a "Catholic" in as much as that was how he was raised and his understanding or interest of the faith is limited, what usually gets termed a Sunday Catholic, i.e. They are Catholic for an hour on Sunday and then ignore it for the rest of the week and don't make it the single most crucial point in their life. I made that claim based on heresay I've heard from people (yes I know very bad of me, will confess that one), and his voting stance in lieu of that issue but I don't think I was trying to say he wasn't catholic. I'm of the line that its hard to escape being catholic if you are alive and living towards some sort of truth outside of yourself. I'm also willing to say I shouldn't have been so harsh on him since I really don't know to what extent his faith plays any part in his life.
