Jeff Last year the Arizona governor signed a statewide proclamation declaring May 17 (I believe) to be Buddha Day. ------------------
Nice arguments all around. But now I need to put in my 2 cents. The first cent is: Jeff, why were you expecting Bush to be inclusive? There was definitely an anti-racism streak to his campaign, but I don't recall any overtones of greater religious tolerance. The second cent is: Christians believe that Jesus is the only Son of God. That is one of the basic criteria for calling yourself a Christian. The religion is, by nature, intolerant of other 'paths.' There is a Truth to the matter and they believe that Truth to be that everyone is condemned to Hell because of their sinful nature except those saved by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So, they will tell Jews and Hindus and Muslims that they are flat out wrong. And they don't want children to be taught otherwise, because their salvation is at stake (unless, of course, you subscribe to the doctrine of the elect). However, this intolerance is from love, because they really do believe that salvation comes through Jesus and their ultimate concern is for people's souls. That may be small comfort when you are feeling persecuted by their love. But that is, nevertheless, the motivation and the theology. If you take away a Christian's right to say a person is saved only through Jesus, then you are not allowing him his religious freedom. ------------------ RealGM Rockets Draft Obligations Summary Gafford Art Artisan
Well said Juan. Also let it be known that Jesus didn't die for Christians ... He died for everyone. ------------------
At church last Sunday, they played the preacher's speech on the projector and everyone went crazy (happy crazy). Clapping and screaming and praising (I go to a pretty free spirited church) and saying all this stuff about how Bush is gonna restore the moral fiber of this country. I was probably the only person in that church that didn't fully agree with that point of view. But hey, people believe what they believe, and if you live your not promoting what you think is right, then what does that show about the strenght of your beliefs? For those that say Bush is installing an ultra conservative administration, that is not a really accurate statement. It's more like a 3 overlapping circle system with the ultra conserves in the 2nd circle. This analysis is complex, so just take my word for it, Bush is mixing it up, kind of. Everytime I feel that something in the world is screwy, I just turn to the opinions of my best bud who's life motto is "why should I care." When I talk to him about abortion, or the death penalty, he responds "well I don''t plan on having a baby, or being on death row, so why should I care about that." I know, this view is harsh and should not be applicably most of the time, but sometimes it'd be good if more people would use it, like now. So what, Bush is gonna use Christian guidelines in government. Personally, I rather have him do that then use the mighty power of his brain to make decisions. ------------------ When I die, I want to be reincarnated as that chair in the Britney Spears video.
Juan: I recall "uniter not a divider" being mentioned over and over. If that doesn't mean "inclusive," what does it mean? Second of all, I don't really care what Christians want or believe and I don't care why they do what they do. In America, we have a choice. Period. They can choose whatever they like for themselves, but NOT for me no matter if it is out of love or hate. Besides, if someone truly loves you, they will respect your choices and allow you to decide whatever it is you decide. Love is not about pushing your beliefs on others. If you love something or someone, you allow them to be free to make whatever mistakes they make even if it means losing their soul. That is the way it works. That is the same love God showed us when he gave us free will as the Bible says. Many a public crusade and execution was presided over by the belief that what was being done was out of love for God or the souls of others. That was the point of religious persecution by AND of Christians throughout our history. Christians had the lion's den. Diests had the crusades. Jews had the Spanish Inquisition and the Holocaust. Buddhists have Tibet. The holy wars in the Middle East have been going on for centuries. In a free country, we must not only BE free from religious persecution. We must FEEL free as well. It is not enough to say we are tolerant. We must BE tolerant. Love means allowing me and anyone else who chooses to make our own mistakes and live our own lives no matter how you might disagree. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Art, Jesus of Nazareth died for political rebellion more than anything and had no association with early Christian thought. Of course, that is neither here nor there. ------------------ EZLN
And of course lets not forget that Christ was of Jewish heritage. But that's also neither here nor there. ------------------ 'Deeds, not words, shall speak me.'
bobrek: I forgot to respond to your post. I did not know that. That is really quite a surprise to me. I would honestly prefer Good Samaritan Day or something along those lines. Even Buddhism, which is closer to my heart, in government makes me nervous, but that's just me. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
I totally agree that funding in our country is completely out of whack, however, the more there is to share here the more funding will find it's way to needy Americans. Our medical and educational systems are seemingly on the verge of collapse, we don't have money to spare. And truthfully we already have problems with poverty, hunger, diseases, and AIDS in this country. We don't have to go to South America or Africa to find those problems. I'm much more in favor of using the UN to handle international epidemics rather than the US trying to play world parent. ------------------ "Somebody DO something out there." -Bill Walton
Timing: I agree that this should be primarily the UN's role. However, AIDS in America is a direct result of our LACK of intervention in the diseases and problems in other parts of the world. There is a new strain of smallpox in India that is drug-resistant. The Ebola virus has come dangerously close to infecting Americans. When you add up the risks, it is MUCH cheaper to aid countries in prevention than it is to pay for a cure. Just like there is a direct correlation between the amount spent on education and the amount spent on prisons. The more money a state spends on education, they less they spend on prisons. In this case, the more we spend on prevention, the less we spend on the cures. Guess which one costs more. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Jeff I found it in a search. It was according to the Arizona Republic. I chose not to pull off the associated articles since it would cost money. From what I could gather, the governor caught some flack for proclaiming some sort of 'Religious week' and decided not to do it again. Subsequently 'Buddha Day' was proclaimed. There appeared to be very few letters to the editor (perhaps 4). Three looked like they were complaining about it (based on the 'vow' no to proclaim religious days again) while a 4th seemed to support it. Again, that is my speculation based on the limited info I could see in the archives. ------------------
Jeff, you're probably right about the 'uniter, not divider' thing since I hardly paid attention to the campaigns. But, did anyone buy that rhetoric? In any case, point well taken; that was just the cynic in me. As for the Christianity, it seems like we're butting heads on this in every Hangout thread: you think Christians are persecuting others and I think Christians are being persecuted. I don't want to let this thing get out of hand, so I'm not going to respond to most of the things I want to respond to. The one thing I will say is that in your argument for having religious tolerance, you've foisted a ton of axioms on me that I do not agree with. Here's the past quote: "...if someone truly loves you, they will respect your choices and allow you to decide whatever it is you decide. Love is not about pushing your beliefs on others. If you love something or someone, you allow them to be free to make whatever mistakes they make even if it means losing their soul. That is the way it works. That is the same love God showed us when he gave us free will as the Bible says." I don't agree. I think, if you love someone, it'd be better to save their soul against their will (hypothetically, since it wouldn't be possible) than to let them damn themselves. If I want religious freedom in this country, do I first have to accept your definition of love? Kim, "So what, Bush is gonna use Christian guidelines in government. Personally, I rather have him do that then use the mighty power of his brain to make decisions." lol. ------------------ RealGM Rockets Draft Obligations Summary Gafford Art Artisan
Setting love aside for a moment, let me just address this one thing: If I want religious freedom in this country, do I first have to accept your definition of love? No, it means you must accept my choices as well as your own. Trying to "save" me is a violation of my rights because it is infringing upon what I believe as a way to satisfy what YOU believe. To have religious freedom, we ALL must have the freedom to worship HOWEVER we want. If we want to worship God, Jesus, Shiva, Buddha, Satan, Mother Earth or no one at all, we should be free to do that WITHOUT anyone attempting to change that no matter what their beliefs are. If you choose to attempt to change my beliefs, you not only are showing me a great deal of disrespect but you are placing your beliefs in a position of superiority over mine which goes against everything having religious freedom means. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Huh? This is reaching quite a bit here, Jeff. AIDS in America is more due to a lack of attention focused in America in the early 80's than anything else. AIDS didn't become a major health issue in Africa till after it spread. In theory if we quarantined the first AIDS victims in Africa then yes, we could have stopped AIDS in America. Since we don't even know when the first case was with certainty, though, this would be difficult even with a time machine. Ebola, unlike AIDS, had very sudden and severe symptoms that screams "Holy Crap! I'm bad! Quarentine me!" dylan ------------------
If I were to try to dissuade someone from drinking (to the point that they are ruining not only their health but also their family) am I showing them disrespect or violating their rights? No, I'm trying to help them. Why would someone be showing disrespect or violating another person's rights if they're trying to help them avoid what they see as a "path of destruction." I don't believe anyone should be able to force beliefs on someone else, but to say that the subject must never even be brought up is something else altogether. Are you not trying to convince people who believe they should try to "save" you that they're in fact wrong? How is that different Jeff? Is it okay to tell people their wrong only when they're of the mind to try to tell other people they're wrong? Here are your words: "In a free country, we must not only BE free from religious persecution. We must FEEL free as well. It is not enough to say we are tolerant. We must BE tolerant. Love means allowing me and anyone else who chooses to make our own mistakes and live our own lives no matter how you might disagree." Answer me this question: How do they not apply to you? You obviously consider it a "mistake" to interfere in someone else's life, but you don't seem to be willing to allow such a person to "make [their] own mistakes and live [their] own lives no matter how you might disagree." Am I wrong about that? If not, why go to such efforts to comdemn it? It seems to me that your own words condemn you. You're practicing the very thing you're preaching against. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TraJ (edited January 23, 2001).]
I think appointing Ashcroft proves that Bush has no intention of having a "middle of the pack" administration. Of course, by making all these stupid decisions, he is sentencing himself to die on November the seventh, 2004. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."
That is the difference between belief and knowledge. We all know that alcohol leads to the destruction of brain cells, liver and kidney failure, diabetes and a lifestyle that leads to human death. NO ONE knows what lies beyond death and so NO ONE can tell me that my life is leading to destruction beyond the grave because there is no proof of that. Besides, it is based on faith, but more on that below. That is circular logic. Of course we are disagreeing on a point. The idea is that we agree to disagree and that said disagreement should not interfere with who we are as people or even as friends if that is the case. I have my way and you have yours. In the case of religion, there is no "right" and "wrong" for me. There is only belief based on faith. I respect what others believe and I only ask that they, in turn, respect what I believe even if they don't agree. Just because I don't agree with someone doesn't mean I think that they are wrong in what they believe. I just believe something different. I believe that Jesus was the Son of God. I also believe that Buddha was enlightened. For me, they are not mutually exclusive but they are for others. I see them as languages. I speak English and someone else may speak Spanish but that doesn't make him/her wrong for speaking Spanish or me wrong for speaking English, just different. The goal is the same: communication. As long as no one tries to convince me that Spanish is better than English, I'm fine with that. There really is no reason to do so since they both help us communicate. Learning both can be beneficial as well and I support that. It is the same with religion. I see each religion as a path to the same goal: spiritual fulfillment. Whether it is going through the Pearly Gates, reaching elightenment or becoming one with the universe, I view them as all different languages for speaking to what is greater than ourselves. Learning more than one can be of great benefit to us spiritually. Now, when someone else believes that his/her belief system is superior to mine, they undermine the concept of respecting beliefs as different but valid. It would be like someone trying to convince you that Spanish is superior to English. It is ALL language. ------------------ Me fail English? That's unpossible.
Christians don't exactly have a good track record of peacefully respecting people of other religions...The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, The Holocaust. Personally, if only Christians are allowed into heaven, I'll take my chances elsewhere. ------------------
Jeff, Regardless of how you might try to explain it, it still appears to me that what you're saying is that your view is superior. What I think your saying is that your view that all religions lead to the same goal is superior to anyone who believes that their religion is superior. The whole tone of your posts is, "It's wrong for you to say that other religions are wrong." However you look at it, that's saying someone else's religion (i.e., their beliefs) is wrong. What I'm saying is that you're making judgments about people you deem judgmental. By the way, I hope you're not taking any of this personally. It's kind of hard to judge the "tone" of conversations on a BBS. I've found that you and I don't always agree, but I do believe you to be honest and thoughtful, and I appreciate that. By the way, outlaw, a good look at history will show that people from just about any religion you can think of have engaged in horrible things by anyone's definition. Let's not pretend it's merely people who have claimed allegiance to Christianity. ------------------
did i say Christians were the only ones guilty of that? i'm just saying it's dangerous to think that proseletyzing (from any group) is as harmless an act as you seem to think it is. ------------------
