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Jeremy Lin's upside

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by meh, Jul 20, 2012.

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lightningbolt Member

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Man some of you guys are getting real butthurt over the fact that people are comparing Lin and Wall athletically. Even when presented with bona-fide, verifiable, objective evidence in the form of official, professional measurements from the NBA combines, the cognitive dissonance you guys are exhibiting still blinds you to the truth.

These are facts: at the 2010 draft combine, John Wall had a 8'5.5" standing reach, a 30.0" no-step vertical, a 39.0" max vertical, and a 3.14 sec 3/4 court sprint. More facts: at the 2010 Portsmouth Invitational, Jeremy Lin had a 8'2" standing reach. His average speed in the 3/4 sprint was 16.66 mph which translates to 3.07 sec, which is faster than Wall and would've been the fastest time at the 2010 combine had he attended. The fastest ever 3/4 court sprint was from Nate Robinson, who ran a 2.96. Some other notable times: Dwayne Wade 3.08, Russell Westbrook 3.08, Derrick Rose 3.05.

Here is Lin dunking at a Harvard game in 2010:

During a game, with a basketball in hand, Lin was still able to get his hand at least about a foot over the rim. With his 8'2" standing reach, that would put his max vertical at the very least at 34". Though I can't find the actual results anywhere, I wouldn't be surprised if the measurement taken at the Portsmouth Invitational was around 35-36". Wall beats him in this regard, sure, but it still puts Lin in the same league as guys like Tyreke Evans (34") and Dwayne Wade (35").

So yeah, Wall has a higher reach and can jump a couple of inches higher and thus can perform more acrobatic dunks but Lin has faster acceleration.

#921 lightningbolt, Aug 22, 2012

imarealballer Member

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Yes, I've posted in detail several times about this issue.

And thanks for the vert. estimates. I've always thought that wade's vertical was under 36".

lightningbolt said: ↑

Man some of you guys are getting real butthurt over the fact that people are comparing Lin and Wall athletically. Even when presented with bona-fide, verifiable, objective evidence in the form of official, professional measurements from the NBA combines, the cognitive dissonance you guys are exhibiting still blinds you to the truth.

These are facts: at the 2010 draft combine, John Wall had a 8'5.5" standing reach, a 30.0" no-step vertical, a 39.0" max vertical, and a 3.14 sec 3/4 court sprint. More facts: at the 2010 Portsmouth Invitational, Jeremy Lin had a 8'2" standing reach. His average speed in the 3/4 sprint was 16.66 mph which translates to 3.07 sec, which is faster than Wall and would've been the fastest time at the 2010 combine had he attended. The fastest ever 3/4 court sprint was from Nate Robinson, who ran a 2.96. Some other notable times: Dwayne Wade 3.08, Russell Westbrook 3.08, Derrick Rose 3.05.

Here is Lin dunking at a Harvard game in 2010:

During a game, with a basketball in hand, Lin was still able to get his hand at least about a foot over the rim. With his 8'2" standing reach, that would put his max vertical at the very least at 34". Though I can't find the actual results anywhere, I wouldn't be surprised if the measurement taken at the Portsmouth Invitational was around 35-36". Wall beats him in this regard, sure, but it still puts Lin in the same league as guys like Tyreke Evans (34") and Dwayne Wade (35").

So yeah, Wall has a higher reach and can jump a couple of inches higher and thus can perform more acrobatic dunks but Lin has faster acceleration.
Click to expand...

#922 imarealballer, Aug 22, 2012
haoafu Contributing Member

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lightningbolt said: ↑

Man some of you guys are getting real butthurt over the fact that people are comparing Lin and Wall athletically. Even when presented with bona-fide, verifiable, objective evidence in the form of official, professional measurements from the NBA combines, the cognitive dissonance you guys are exhibiting still blinds you to the truth.

These are facts: at the 2010 draft combine, John Wall had a 8'5.5" standing reach, a 30.0" no-step vertical, a 39.0" max vertical, and a 3.14 sec 3/4 court sprint. More facts: at the 2010 Portsmouth Invitational, Jeremy Lin had a 8'2" standing reach. His average speed in the 3/4 sprint was 16.66 mph which translates to 3.07 sec, which is faster than Wall and would've been the fastest time at the 2010 combine had he attended. The fastest ever 3/4 court sprint was from Nate Robinson, who ran a 2.96. Some other notable times: Dwayne Wade 3.08, Russell Westbrook 3.08, Derrick Rose 3.05.

Here is Lin dunking at a Harvard game in 2010:

During a game, with a basketball in hand, Lin was still able to get his hand at least about a foot over the rim. With his 8'2" standing reach, that would put his max vertical at the very least at 34". Though I can't find the actual results anywhere, I wouldn't be surprised if the measurement taken at the Portsmouth Invitational was around 35-36". Wall beats him in this regard, sure, but it still puts Lin in the same league as guys like Tyreke Evans (34") and Dwayne Wade (35").

So yeah, Wall has a higher reach and can jump a couple of inches higher and thus can perform more acrobatic dunks but Lin has faster acceleration.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

"2011 offseason
......
He also increased his strength, doubling the weight he could squat (from 110 pounds (50 kg) to 231 (105)) and almost tripling the number of pull-ups that he could do (from 12 to 30).[88] He increased his body weight from 200 pounds (91 kg) to 212 (96)—including 15 pounds (6.8 kg) of muscle—added 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) to his standing vertical jump and 6 inches (15 cm) to his running vertical jump, and improved his lateral quickness by 32 percent."

Based on your observation and the improvement afterwards mentioned in the quote, Lin's max vertical could approach 40 inches territory by now. Remember Morey emphasized how people underestimated Lin's athleticism upon the recent signing. That also explains how he could chase down and block Rose last season.

#923 haoafu, Aug 22, 2012
Alex L. Contributing Member

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So 47 pages of statistics and comparisons later, I'm throwing in my 5 cents.

Height and speed are meaningless unless put to good use at the right place at the right time. Lin's upside is his intangibles: his basketball IQ is off the chart and he plays with heart.

What did he do after he scored 38 points against the Lakers? He played D and drew a charge in the dying minutes of the game to secure the W! That's a man I want on my team over another superstar (ok, maybe not Lebron...)

#924 Alex L., Aug 22, 2012
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Yup, it's called basketball IQ, having heart (being clutch) and having a great work ethic.

If anything, his trainers have to slow him down so he doesn't go overboard. Les got a bargain. The rocks, so undervalued.

#925 imarealballer, Aug 22, 2012
kaitanuva Member

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If Lin had a 40 inch vert he would have been dunking like Westbrook everytime he drove in the lane. But he didn't.

#926 kaitanuva, Aug 22, 2012
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haoafu said: ↑

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

"2011 offseason
......
He also increased his strength, doubling the weight he could squat (from 110 pounds (50 kg) to 231 (105)) and almost tripling the number of pull-ups that he could do (from 12 to 30).[88] He increased his body weight from 200 pounds (91 kg) to 212 (96)—including 15 pounds (6.8 kg) of muscle—added 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) to his standing vertical jump and 6 inches (15 cm) to his running vertical jump, and improved his lateral quickness by 32 percent."

Based on your observation and the improvement afterwards mentioned in the quote, Lin's max vertical could approach 40 inches territory by now. Remember Morey emphasized how people underestimated Lin's athleticism upon the recent signing. That also explains how he could chase down and block Rose last season.
Click to expand...

Take off your LOF glasses please. A 40 inch vertical is elite class. Lin had to get a running start from the 3 point line to even throw one down on the Wizards.

#927 theaesirsfinest, Aug 22, 2012

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kaitanuva said: ↑

If Lin had a 40 inch vert he would have been dunking like Westbrook everytime he drove in the lane. But he didn't.
Click to expand...

Why? It's only 2 points.

Plus people injure themselves dunking a la Amar'e.

#928 Alex L., Aug 22, 2012
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Allegro said: ↑

Lin is better than even the prime Stevie Franchise. Stevie's best year was his sophomore season, before the headaches, etc. Lin's best year, of course, was last season, which was basically his only year. So here are some stats per 36 minutes of playing time in those seasons:

Lin: FG%=0.446 Assists=8.3 Rebounds=4.1 Points=19.6
F: FG%=0.451 Assists=5.8 Rebounds=6.2 Points=17.9

(Remember, these numbers are per 36 minutes. I really wish there was a way to line up numbers in columns.)

Stevie was microscopically better at shooting but scored less than Lin. Stevie was also a better rebounder. However, Lin is vastly better at passing, and this is more important since a great passer can dominate a game. Also, an assist doesn't happen unless somebody definitely scores, whereas a rebound may or may not affect the scoreboard.

So Lin passes much better and scores more -- and the scary thing is that he's likely to improve. Lin is better.
Click to expand...

 I like Lin but I disagree on a couple of fronts.

Allegro said: ↑

Stevie's best year was his sophomore season
Click to expand...

This is very debatable since Francis 3 seasons where he averaged at least 21pts 6rebs 6asts. (Though his shooting percentages were less than desirable.) I think a lot of his shooting woes were due to the pressure of trying to carry a franchise, which led playing too much “hero” ball.

Allegro said: ↑

Lin is vastly better at passing
Click to expand...

If you look at assists & turnovers (outside of per 36min) it tells a different story, they’re actually similar.

Allegro said: ↑

Stevie was microscopically better at shooting but scored less than Lin.
Click to expand...

Not true, again Francis scored 20+ per game multiple times during his career.

Allegro said: ↑

Lin is better.
Click to expand...

Lol, nice try but we'll have to agree to disagree. At his peak Stevie was a high wire act as exciting as any in the league. He started 3 all-star games & when traded, he headlined a package that fetched an NBA scoring champ (Mcgrady).Francis was an ELITE athlete even by NBA standards which interestingly enough led to his demise. His athleticism was almost a distraction. He never learned the nuances of playing the PG position and once injuries robbed him of his athletic gifts he quickly washed out. The fact that many think he underachieved is a testament to his talent, considering the career he put together.

#929 TEXNIFICENT, Aug 22, 2012
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haoafu said: ↑

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

"2011 offseason
......
He also increased his strength, doubling the weight he could squat (from 110 pounds (50 kg) to 231 (105)) and almost tripling the number of pull-ups that he could do (from 12 to 30).[88] He increased his body weight from 200 pounds (91 kg) to 212 (96)—including 15 pounds (6.8 kg) of muscle—added 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) to his standing vertical jump and 6 inches (15 cm) to his running vertical jump, and improved his lateral quickness by 32 percent."

Based on your observation and the improvement afterwards mentioned in the quote, Lin's max vertical could approach 40 inches territory by now. Remember Morey emphasized how people underestimated Lin's athleticism upon the recent signing. That also explains how he could chase down and block Rose last season.
Click to expand...

damn son

pretty soon he gonna be doing this

#930 SuperBeeKay, Aug 22, 2012
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Yawn...

Forget statistics, I'll show you what I can do with 0 vertical.

(Signed) Yao Ming

#931 LinHype, Aug 22, 2012
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He beat Shawn Marion on a jump ball last season, so his standing vertical can't be too shabby

And there's that dunk on the Wizards

Mid game, so not fresh, ball in hand, so not his true max height. And running at an angle dunking it while moving sideways

Do the sums - 10 feet minus 6'4" in shoes = 44 inches.
Lin looks about 10 inches off the rim with the top of his head.
So about 34 inches, add 1-2 inches when he is fresh, and a few more without the ball in his hand. As everyone knows you jump at least 3 inches higher without the ball, and it gets pretty close to 40....

#932 CoolColJ, Aug 22, 2012
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Another from Harvard days - around 34 inches again...

#933 CoolColJ, Aug 22, 2012

stl1622dc Member

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All of these estimates about a 40" vertical are ridiculous. That would put him above John Wall (39") and Russell Westbrook (36.5") and equal to Rose (40"). Unless someone can find data from a pre-draft workout or something I'm not buying it.

The only hard facts I've seen that can really give us a clue about his athleticism are the BAM scores. These show he has top level speed, but his power and agility are below elite level.

Total BAM Score
Lin 76
Irving 84
Wall 83

Source: http://thebamboxscore.com/2012/03/09...-guard-review/

#934 stl1622dc, Aug 22, 2012
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haoafu said: ↑

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

"2011 offseason
......
He also increased his strength, doubling the weight he could squat (from 110 pounds (50 kg) to 231 (105)) and almost tripling the number of pull-ups that he could do (from 12 to 30).[88] He increased his body weight from 200 pounds (91 kg) to 212 (96)—including 15 pounds (6.8 kg) of muscle—added 3.5 inches (8.9 cm) to his standing vertical jump and 6 inches (15 cm) to his running vertical jump, and improved his lateral quickness by 32 percent."

Based on your observation and the improvement afterwards mentioned in the quote, Lin's max vertical could approach 40 inches territory by now. Remember Morey emphasized how people underestimated Lin's athleticism upon the recent signing. That also explains how he could chase down and block Rose last season.
Click to expand...

okay, now YOU'RE being ridiculous bro lol

#935 jasonemilio, Aug 22, 2012
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CoolColJ said: ↑

He beat Shawn Marion on a jump ball last season, so his standing vertical can't be too shabby

And there's that dunk on the Wizards

Mid game, so not fresh, ball in hand, so not his true max height. And running at an angle dunking it while moving sideways

Do the sums - 10 feet minus 6'4" in shoes = 44 inches.
Lin looks about 10 inches off the rim with the top of his head.
So about 34 inches, add 1-2 inches when he is fresh, and a few more without the ball in his hand. As everyone knows you jump at least 3 inches higher without the ball, and it gets pretty close to 40....
Click to expand...

Compared with westbrook:

Lin and Westbrook have similar hops. Lin's about 6'3" in shoes, top of head less than a foot below the rim; same's true for Dumbbrook. I'd say dumbbrook has a small or non-existent edge in vert.

#936 imarealballer, Aug 22, 2012
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Link's not working. How old are the bam stats since we can't see them? Lin's had consecutive monstrous offseason camps with spartascience.

stl1622dc said: ↑

All of these estimates about a 40" vertical are ridiculous. That would put him above John Wall (39") and Russell Westbrook (36.5") and equal to Rose (40"). Unless someone can find data from a pre-draft workout or something I'm not buying it.

The only hard facts I've seen that can really give us a clue about his athleticism are the BAM scores. These show he has top level speed, but his power and agility are below elite level.

Total BAM Score
Lin 76
Irving 84
Wall 83

Source: http://thebamboxscore.com/2012/03/09...-guard-review/
Click to expand...

#937 imarealballer, Aug 22, 2012
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kaitanuva said: ↑

If Lin had a 40 inch vert he would have been dunking like Westbrook everytime he drove in the lane. But he didn't.
Click to expand...

It's highly unlikely that westbrook has a 40" vertical. I'd believe 36-37" for both Lin and Westbrook. Check out the photos.

#938 imarealballer, Aug 22, 2012

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imarealballer said: ↑

Link's not working. How old are the bam stats since we can't see them? Lin's had consecutive monstrous offseason camps with spartascience.
Click to expand...

http://thebamboxscore.com/2012/03/09/the-linside-point-guard-review/

These are pre-draft measures for each player, but you have to assume that most players see pretty good gains during their first offseason as a pro. They finally have the time and resources to spend.

Here is a link for combine #s for some players (not-Lin):http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=30&pos=1&sort=12 This gives a good idea of what a 40" vert means.

#939 stl1622dc, Aug 22, 2012
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stl1622dc said: ↑

All of these estimates about a 40" vertical are ridiculous. That would put him above John Wall (39") and Russell Westbrook (36.5") and equal to Rose (40"). Unless someone can find data from a pre-draft workout or something I'm not buying it.

The only hard facts I've seen that can really give us a clue about his athleticism are the BAM scores. These show he has top level speed, but his power and agility are below elite level.

Total BAM Score
Lin 76
Irving 84
Wall 83

Source: http://thebamboxscore.com/2012/03/09...-guard-review/
Click to expand...

Rose does not get up much higher than Lin...

#940 CoolColJ, Aug 22, 2012

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