I'm not defending the "first ballot concept" but it does exist. Max's argument was that if Bagwell played for the Yankees he'd be a first ballot hall of famer. Based on the people the voters have given that distinction to, I see no reason to believe that to be the case. I don't see any borderline Yankees getting in on first ballots, and in general the first ballot is reserved for the elite of the elite who hit magical numbers like 500 homeruns or 3000 hits. I think Max is playing the Houston victim card with Bagwell where it is not warranted. Yeah he went in as a Sox after agreeing to go in a Devil Ray for cash. The Hall took the rights away from the players largely because of Wade Boggs I believe.
Your opinion is biased here Max. You are a smart and rational person, you should be able to see that. Agreed, and he's likely to be punished for it when the voting comes.
I think he will too, but if you think he would be in right now if he was a Yankee you are just playing the Houston persecution card that seems so beneath you that runs rampant on these boards. Waaaaaa Charles Barkley says we won't win an NBA title waaaaaaaaaa Houston gets no respect!
well...Charles is right. i'm not feeling persecuted. but you're foolish to believe that being a Yankee doesn't help a player's legacy. if we're gonna confess bias here, justtxYANK, you might wanna raise your hand as well.
I'm not a New Yorker and I hate Mike Piazza with all my heart and soul. I happen to not be personally fond of Jeff Bagwell either based on personal encounters, but I'd rather see Piazza get just enough votes to stay on the ballot but never get elected for as long as he lives than see Jeff Bagwell get a splinter.
I confess a love for the Yankees, but I always strive to remove bias in my discussions and I think if you give an honest look over my contributions to this message board you will find that I am very good at it. Even if I was biased for the Yankees, what would that have to do with a Piazza vs Bagwell debate?
hah that's a good line. Regarding the whole on the field Piazza-v-Bagwell debate, here is my two cents: purely in the batter's box, Piazza has Bagwell beat. I don't think there's much argument there. The problem is (and I don't understand why people forget this so easily when looking at numbers) that baseball is played on the basepaths and in the field, not just in the batter's box. Considering the entire game, not just the 40% that is played in the batter's box, Bagwell kicks Piazza's ass. And, it's not even close.
piazza wasn't all we've been talking about. look....i don't think i'm losing credibility here because i think Jeff Bagwell was more valuable than Mike Piazza. That's not a far-fetched argument. You may not agree with it...but their numbers are eerily similar...except Bags was a helluva defender and a great baserunner to boot. You can argue that Piazza was a catcher, so baserunning doesn't matter....of course, I'll argue back that Piazza wasn't REALLY a catcher, he just happened to be there. and on and on. but suggesting my argument that Bagwell was move valuable than Piazza is purely one of bias is ridiculous.
He does when you ignore positional alignment. It's like Biggio vs Tim Raines. You could make an argument for either of these being the better player in a given year, but Biggio's HOG argument is infinitely stronger because of not only the 3000 hits milestone but because he played second base while Raines played the outfield.
OK I didn't say you were losing credibility, did I? No it is not far fetched. I have never said it was. I implied it was far fetched to make the argument that Bagwell would be in the HOF today had he played for the Yankees and that your instant dismissal of a Piazza/Bagwell debate (blown away, etc.) is far fetched.
as long as both people are playing merely adequate defense, that's fine. but sticking a guy behind the plate who is never even average there...and then wanting to ride that as credit when compared to other players who are fielding their position among the best in the game?? no.
Let me make myself clear because we're talking in circles: 1. I think Bagwell was more valuable than Piazza. You think otherwise. Super. 2. I think Bagwell would be in the HOF today if he were wearing Yankee pinstripes. You think otherwise. Super. Are we done?
He does regardless. Are you arguing that Piazza should be credited just for playing catcher, that less offense is expected from his position? Bah. Tell that to Johnny Bench.
