I highly doubt you had that in mind when you made your previous post when you said there were no accusers....but iif you did, you should make that more clear before you create the implication that there has never been anything directly linking him to steroids (as many haev and continue to do)...you should say something like "well people have said they gave him steroids but I don't believe them, since they're not credible"
(Career averages: avg/obp/slg/ops/ops+) Piazza: .308/.377/.545/.922/142 Bagwell .297/.408/.540/.948/149 Bagwell finished with about 60 more homeruns in over 800 more at bats. And yes, the catcher distinction matters. Piazza wasn't a terrible catcher early in his career, but the fact that he was worn down every year playing catcher and still was able to put up numbers comparable to an elite first baseman is pretty remarkable. With nothing substantive to back up that assertion. I provided the list of first ballot hall of famers. Point me to a case similar to Bagwell.
Just saw this..but it doesn't go to my point at all. I'm not saying Bagwell is a player who DOESN'T deserve to be in. I believe he should be. As do most of the big name and most respected baseball writers. So I'm not suggesting that an undeserving Bagwell would have found entrance on the first ballot yesterday because he was wearing Yankee pinstripes....I'm suggesting that a very deserving Bagwell would have found it a lot easier to get in on the first ballot if he had played in Yankee pinstripes.
He basically said he's not comfortable voting for him based on things he's heard and the people Bagwell's been associated with. When asked if he is just "guessing" that Bagwell used, he said it would be unfair to label it simply a guess. His profession gets information that is not consumed by the general public and if you want to call it a guess, it's an educated guess. He also said he is not closing the door on Bagwell's candidacy, just that he felt uncomfortable today and was always willing to listen to arguments on why he should change his mind.
There has NEVER been anything to DIRECTLY link him to steroids. That article is meaningless to me. When he gets on a list, convicted, or admits to PEDs then I will sadly admit to being wrong about the guy but just because someone who can't even keep his stories straight and is a virtual nobody says it...I won't even acknowledge it. That is why I made my previous statement about no accusers.
Guess what, Sam? There has never been anything directly linking him to steroids. Dude's name is mentioned in that story as once-removed hearsay about a name-dropping braggart in Pasadena. Then the source immediately followed up his quote with a qualification that maybe the guy was telling tall tales. It's funny that every time people want to present Bagwell having juiced as "fact" (and I will agree with you immediately that it is entirely possible and no one can reasonably say they can prove he didn't) that all they have to hold on to is this one pathetic link. It surfaces every time. Nice try. You don't have proof. If you're sure, that's fine: but it's your opinion, not the "truth", and you will do well not to confuse the two.
Look at the list of first ballot hall of famers again Max and zero in on hitters. With a few exceptions (ozzie smith wtf) you will see two magic numbers that most of them got to: 3000 hits or 500 homeruns. Bagwell got to neither of those. Look for a first ballot hall of famer on that list you think Bagwell is comparable to: Mickey Mantle, Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, Wade Boggs (lol) and Rickey Henderson. Those are first ballot Yankees, and all them either hit 500 homeruns or 3000 hits.
With regard to Piazza. Even at his prime he was a below-average catcher. I don't care about that. That they played him at that position is of no importance to me at all when he was never very effective there. The numbers you post don't reflect the full value of Jeff Bagwell, either. When you leave out steals and runs, you're missing part of the point with Jeff. Bagwell swiped 202 bases in his career...Piazza swiped 20. All of this is a moot argument though...because Piazza hasn't been up for his first ballot yet. We'll see what happens. You'll never convince me that Piazza was as valuable as Bagwell, though. Sorry.
with this and the texans stuff, i've been privy to more stupidity in the first 6 days of 2011 than nearly all of 2010, midterms excluded.
I've got some arguments for him: get off your damn high-and-mighty uber-pious witch hunt and vote for the 2nd best 1B in the history of the National League.
Piazza has a stronger case for the Hall of Fame than Bagwell does. Just because you dismiss that he played catcher doesn't change the fact that he did. I won't debate who was ultimately more "valuable" but I will point out that Piazza was by the far the best player on a Mets team that went to the World Series and was a monster in the NLCS and very good in the World Series.
"uber pious" LOL Graziano made another good points: He's not voting on whether they were good people and he's not voting on whether stories about them, pictures about them and stats about them should be up in the Hall of Fame. That stuff is already there. He's voting on whether they deserve extra honor in that room of legends, and if he's not comfortable with how they achieved their fame he can't vote for them. There's nothing pious about it.
I mean I get what you're saying about "first-ballot" (though that concept has become something ridiculously overrated imo), but I'm glad the Wizard is in: it demonstrates that defense matters. Same goes for Nellie Fox. LOL indeed! Boggs is a first-ballot Devil Ray, no? Or a first ballot Red Sox. :grin: :grin:
big effin' whoop. i'll point out that had bagwell not played 81 games a year for 9 years (minus whatever games were missed during the strike year) in the astrodome, he'd have more than the 500 hrs. fact of the matter is there is not one iota of proof and the one story anyone could find is laughed away easily.
It's exactly pious. Is he comfortable with how spitball pitchers got there? Or Mickey Mantle, hopped up on speed and other uppers? Or all the guys hopping up on ephedra or other uppers in the 80s? This is all bull****, justtxyank. Pure, unadulterated, witch-hunt, faux-piety bull****.
