Help me out--I'm hoping it's over my head simply because it's so late. Didn't we get Harnish, Finley, and Schilling for Davis?
Huh? By who? Not by the Astros... who are fast-tracking him up the system faster than any pitcher they've ever had before (even faster than Oswalt). He's never spent a full calendar year at any level, being advanced at or near the midway point in each, culminating in being at AAA before the age of 22. And teams are still going to value a 21 year old lefty who has never had one struggling season in the minors (and several flat-out dominant ones) over a 25 year old 6'9 righty finesse pitcher.
What was the deal with Hirsh? I've heard that the Astros didn't like what they saw in the limited time he had in the majors at the end of last season to they didn't like his attitude and work ethic.
Well, he was the 2002 Rookie of the Year so perhaps they saw last year as more of him finally fulfilling his potential and coming on as a player. But you're right, it was still a high risk and had to work out best case scenario to work. I totally disagree with this point. It doesn't matter how much better that team was than this one. Any team that gets into the playoffs has just about an equal shot (for the most part) of winning the whole thing. We had the same nucleus that had contended for 3 years and the division had gotten even WEAKER. obviously, that team was superior to this one and was running away with the division, but how much more superior is irrelevant. You just have to get in and this team had a great shot at doing so this year. They had to take the risk to land a #2 starter. It would have been foolish to not try to compete when the division was prime for the picking. So yes, it's comparable to Randy Johnson in that risk respect. I don't think so. I could be wrong, but after last year, I remember reading that most people didn't think he could be that type of pitcher. With all due respect, you're totally off base here. Patton has been the crown jewel of the Astros farm system for some time now. Hirsh was brought up as an ace, but after last year, I remember reading expectations cooled a bit. I don't know about that. Perhaps it's more that those moves worked out while this one didn't? They have always paid a high price for talent but it's worked out. Garcia and Buck for Johnson and Beltran are more highly regarded prospects than the guys we gave up for Jennings. It just worked out that Unit went 10-1 down the stretch with us with a sub 2 ERA and Beltran shattered Bonds' postseason HR record. So we don't care. I'm on the fence regarding the signing.
defensively, taveras would certainly represent a significant upgrade over both guys. significant. but you're comparing apples to oranges with regards to their impact on the line-up. taveras is a lead-off hitter, not a run producer, and has posted an ob% of .360+ since last year's ASB. are you telling me this is a better team with biggio's .300 ob% leading off?
Heck, no. But I'll tell you that Biggio would still be leading off for this team if Taveras were here. Which is pretty freaking stupid.
According to the threads here when Hirsh was brought up, he was projected as a #2/#3 pitcher to be very excited about. If I remember correctly, according to a thread earlier this year asking about Patton, people said he was a middle-level starter or possibly a future bullpen guy. It seemed like a disappointing report, especially in comparison to what was expected of Hirsh. But that's just my memory of the thread.
I disagree that we had the same nucleus that we had contended with for 3 years. For starters, we were not very good last year - we only "contended" because St. Louis collapsed in the final 10 days of the season. We were like 7 games out with 10-12 days to go. Second, we lost Clemens & Pettitte, and Lidge was a huge questionmark. Those were three of the 5 "core" pieces (along with Berkman/Oswalt). That's the problem - "after last year" is 9 starts. If they believed he was that level of pitcher through the minors, why give up on him after 9 freaking starts? Nothing should have changed that quickly - outside of the rare Oswalt/Liriano type that dominates from day 1, almost every pitcher takes at least a year or two to develop at the major league level. Agreed - but those moves had a very narrow, specific purpose: to take a good team and make them great. There's a reason the Cincis and Royals of the world don't trade away young players for vets: because they don't have very good teams and need to build from within. The Astros were in the same position this offseason: their starting point wasn't a good team; it was a 0.500 team that lost two of its star pitchers.
well, no, we didn't have the same nucelus: we lost clemens and pettitte. but i agree - they had every right to believe they could compete in this division. but i don't think they were very honest with themselves. they made three critical misevaluations - first, on taveras and his impact down the stretch last year (30-game hit streak, ,360 ob%); they then forgot, didn't understand or flat-out dismissed the dynamics of their offense last year - lee essentially replaced huff (check their career OPSs) - but who was going to replace scott's 1.000 ops since it was safe to assume he would not be posting that again?; and finally, they overrated jennings, who's career ERA+ is 95-99: the very definition of average. how or why they thought he was anything more is astounding and that they then compounded that by giving away three players....
Trading Glenn Davis was a mistake? What? Not only did you get three good players for him, but he never had a good or healthy season again.
maybe. from august on last year, though, taveras was the lead-off hitter each and every day. my guess is that he would have been again with biggio second and pence 5/6.
At the time, Astros fans crucified the owner for letting Davis go (instead of paying him big bucks). At the time, Glenn Davis was one of the best power hitters in baseball. At the time, the other three players in the trade were considered good players with some upside potential. At the time, this was a good trade for Baltimore and a bad trade for Houston.
I wonder if we can trade him back to the Rockies for Willy and gang...hmmmm... I do hope for a speedy recovery as it was obvious he was damanged goods when he got here...That's what sux the most...well, that and fat ass giving up way too much for him, but I digress...
At the time. But how can someone now in 2007 look back and mention it as one of the worst trades in history? Davis fell totally off the face of the Earth due to injury and ineffectiveness.
I'm talking about the Glenn Davis trade though. No matter what kind of careers Willy T, Hirsch and Bucholz have, the fact that Jennings has been dreadful this year and hurt and will be gone after it most likely means the Astros CAN'T win this trade unless Willy T, Hirsch, and Bucholz go on some mass murder spree and kill all the members of the Colorado roster.
I'm as big a critic of Pupura as anyone, but it's laughable to state that Lee vs Huff amounted to a lateral move. Huff was very mediocre last year, he had an even lower OPS than Ensberg, and this year he's just terrible (.727 OPS). Lee, by comparison, has .884 OPS and is among the league leaders in RBI. The big mistake they made, imo, was letting Clemens and Pettite go (and not even getting compensation in terms of draft picks).
I've watched every game this season, and CF defense is pretty far down my list in terms of problems with this team. A "lead-off hitter" is only guaranteed to lead off once a game. For the most part, they're like everyone else -- you want the most efficient player at the plate. Am I telling you this is a better team with Biggio leading off? Absolutely not. But are you telling me this is a better team with Biggio batting second, fifth or sixth while replacing Scott or Lamb? To me, the lead-off spot isn't any more important than others in the lineup -- you want a solid, disciplined hitter. And if Taveras is here, you're significantly weakening another slot when you take the power bat of Scott or Lamb out. By the way, Taveras was well on his way to his standard production after the All-Star break... the only reason his numbers are still as high as they are is his quad injury that put him on the DL.
Your leadoff hitter gets to the plate more than any other batter on your team (discounting any pinch hitting situations, defensive replacements, etc.) You want a hitter there who gets on base. Having a guy with a .300 obp means the position in the order that gets the most at bats in a season makes an out 70% of the time. That's awful.
