The link I provided you above shows a list of sources, among them is Jung Chang, though not Halliday. There are also many more, I will let you check the link yourself. I have said every single time that Mao did not intend to starve his own people, and that the starvation was the result of incompetence. There may be a language problem here, though I'm quite sure that you understand my English far better than I would understand your Mandrin (or Cantonese for that matter).
I should say I'm not surprised where your knowledge comes from. I don't think language is the problem here. I have an American PhD and we are talking English here. The problem is you tried to spin things to connect the faluire of GLP with "horrendous record of murder and tyranny". Here's what you said: As for the "failed programs", tens of millions of people died. For me, saying, "Oops, I didn't mean for that to happen." doesn't cut it. If Mao was simply an incompetent that accidentally killed tens of millions of people through starvation, then no, he would not be as bad as a war criminal; intention has meaning. That he did that as part of a horrendous record of murder and tyranny just makes him look worse.
StupidMonky doesn't know what he is talking about. The end of the artical he quoted paints a totally different picture than the one he imagines.
Contrary to the popular myth, the Sino-Japanese relation wasn't nearly as bad 30 years ago as it is today. Back in the '70s, at least at the state to state level, China and Japan considered each other a friendly neighbour. There were good wills expressed from both sides, which strived to put the past animosity behind them through dialogues, trades, cultural exchanges, and friendly invitational sports competitions. In the past, Japanese Prime Ministers and other cabinet members paid visits to the shrine in private, mostly avoiding the sensitive date August 15, which is the official surrender date of Japan in 1945. In 1985, Prime Minister Yasuhiro Nakasone made the first official visit since the war. On his birthday in July 1996, former Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto made what he said was a private visit. Over the last decade or so, Japanese' politicians have gradually turned to increasingly right-wing and militarilistic agenga, with the support of the United States. The Sino-Japanese relation turned extremely sour when the current Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi took office. He has made official visit to Yasukuni every year since 2001, all on August 15. Not all Japanese, however, approve such blatant provacation and defiance. For one, Japanese Emperor Hirohito opposed the Yasukuni Shrine to include the names of top class war criminals. More recently, even many descendants of the Class-A war criminals are opposing Koizumi's annual ritual. Opinion polls also show 60% of the Japanese voters do NOT want the next prime minister to visit the shrine.
Here is your quote:"I said he was just as bad, not that he did the exact same things. He starved tens of millions of people to death. I guess for you starving to death doesn't compare to being killed by dogs, bio-weapons, or bayonets. For most of us, starving people to death would be tantamount to torturing them to death. That doesn't even get into all of the people, probably in the millions, that he had killed on purpose for political reasons." You tell me how should one interprete. English is a foreign language to me. Maybe you could enlighten me how you reached that conclusion "probably in the millions". BTW, please quote any poster here said that Mao is the best thing ever happened to China. He's not the best thing, or not even a good thing, that doesn't mean he equals Hitler or Japanese war criminals. Applying your logic, let me ask you this, do you think Bush equals God or Hitler? The wikipedia page you linked, didn't mention about "millions political opponents" (btw, how could one ever have millions political opponents?) or "intentional starve Chinese people". The argument was about nature condition/famine or failed policies. I believe bad policies caused more demage, but that doesn't mean Mao starved Chinese on purpose, unlike those war criminals. If you want to equal bad driver killing people in accidents to planned murder, go ahead. If you want to equal lacking of leadership in handling Katrina to ethnical cleansing, go ahead. If you want to equal lying war-starter to Hitler, go ahead, because you are doing the exact same thing here. Don't just assume Chinese don't know about Mao. My family was at the nationalist side, when communists took power, both my father and mother's families suffered a great deal, and lost all posessions. My grandparents received incredible humiliation and physical abuse, and almost killed themselves. They complained a lot about Mao, but none of them hated him, simply because he is Chinese, and did a lot of specials things to China. One of my aunt in law's father, and the father of one of my good friends, were executed by communists. They never hated Mao, although they criticized a lot. But they are both angry about the Shrine visiting. Why? They are Chinese and Mao is Chinese. Mao did all kinds of bad things, but the people supported him to take over Kiang. Mao stood firm in front of Americans and Russians. He rejected requests from communist big brother to station marine and air force in China, while all other Asian countries accepted such help from US. He has a lot in common with Kiang, they are both proud Chinese. They refused to become a puppet government. Even they fought, they had that harmony in the ultimate goal to re-unite China. Mao rejected the idea to take over Jin Meng, Kiang rejected the notion to give up Jin Meng, so they can keep firing at each other with empty cannons to keep that connection - an ongoing civil war between 2 parts of China. When Chinese fought Phillipines on sea, Kiang let PLA's warship pass, because he too is a Chinese. It's great insult to Chinese people, when you equal Mao to Japanese executed war criminals. Again, nobody expects you to be sensitive or even care, but you are certainly delusional to believe that you can dictate what Chinese can be upset about. Now, let's cut all the crap derailing this thread, and go back to the root of it. Chinese are upset that Japanese prime minister paid official visit to the holly shrine, which hosted 14 executed class A war criminals (same level as Hitler and Goering like) and countless efforts to deny past war crime and history. Chinese consider such crime-denial as new crime. Some Americans are upset that Chinese are upset, and concluded that Chinese are not allowed to be upset about war crimes done upon them, simply because Mao did bad things to China too. Did I miss anything?
Likewise I'm not surprised that the main basis of the argument agaist me is that my sources are biased, and in fact that I predicted that eventuality in an earlier post. I did not connect the two, which is why I thought it might be a language issue. I guess you are willfully misunderstanding what I am saying. There are several ideas I am presenting. 1. The famine was not done on purpose. 2. The famine was at least partially the fault of Mao. 3. There were many atrocities commited by Mao - on purpose - the famine is not one of these. 4. The famine, which was the result of incompetence, in combination with the willful atrocities by Mao, make him ultimately responsible for many millions of deaths. 5. Being responsible for many millions of deaths, the majority through incompetence, but also many through evil, willful acts, puts Mao in the class of a Stalin or Hitler. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. Feel free to attack any or all of those points individually or collectively. Feel free also to provide a source for your arguments, as I have provided one directly and several indirectly for mine. Screenname smack, nice. That Chinese life expectancy has increased has no bearing on Mao's responsibility for the deaths of millions. In fact, I would say that it would be very difficult to credit anyone's policies for an increease in life expectancy which coincides with a global increase in life-expectancy. That the starting point they use for life-expectancy was during the Chinese civil war does not speak well to the veracity of the statistic. The fact that only one source is given for this counter-argument link and the source is obviously a communism apologist (arguing in favor of both Mao and Stalin, even though the Russians and other former Soviets themselves have spoken against Stalin) also does not speak well of this idea. Wikipedia articles are like that sometimes, because they are not necessarily written by one author and not everyone is as fastidious in gathering and using sources.
They might have voted no with the consideration of economic ties with China and Korea, not because they realized how evil the war was, as German do. And they are gonna elect a more hardline, right wing fanatic, as next prime minister. I don't see how that will help.
I think that the right-wing LDP Japanese PMs are doing this to play to the right-wing nationalists which is unfortunate. Its sort of reminds me when some Republicans decided they had to visit Bob Jones University. (I'm NOT saying the Shrine is comparable to Bob Jones, just pointing out that it reminds me of that a little). But its good to hear that 60% of Japanese voters oppose the shrine visits. Perhaps the ordinary Japanese people are more understanding, sympathetic and reasonble than people assume based on the right-wing LDP govt. (Same could be said of the US right-wing GOP govt
Let me counter your 5 points one by one: 1. you were saying "not on purpose". So what is fuss about? 2. Partially on failed policy, more due to bad luck. So what? Tens of millions were killed by flu last centry. Weren't world leaders partially responsible for not being prepared? Does it make them killers of those who died? 3. where in your quotes support your arguments? Many atrocities? How many? Nowhere in your post address that clearly. 4. totally nonsense. Can you express yourself clearly? I don't see the logic nor any substance. 5. starting with a point that you haven't proven. Again, totally nonsense. Look, whatever grudge you have against Mao, take it somewhere else. This thread is not about Mao. Besides, nobody will take you seriously given your incapability of reasoning logically and backing up your arguments with proven facts.
Nice try. If you truly don't want to connect the two, how do you lump deaths that "the majority through imcompetence" and other to reach your in the calss of Hitler conclusion? Yeah, Hitler killed millions intentionally through ethnic cleansing, Mao was responsible for millions of death, though majorly through incompetence, Mao had also carried out some intentional persecution, therefore Mao is in the class of Hitler. Great, graet logic, I tell you.
*sigh* From my second link above: According the the median estimates of several sources, Mao is responsible for 2 million deaths via purges, 1 million deaths in the Cultural Revolution, and 20 million deaths in labor camps. Even excluding the deaths from famine during the GLF, that puts his death toll at 23 million, which certainly puts him in the worst people ever category with Hitler and Stalin. That his policies contributed to 30 million more deaths from famine is another negative for him, though not necessary to show that he is in the aforementioned category. He was called the Chinese version of George Washington by Golden Bear. George Washington is widely considered the best or one of the best presidents in American history. The best thing that ever happened to China was a bit of hyperbole, but there you go, an example of a poster saying that Mao was great for China, as George Washington was for America. I would say Bush is a far cry from Hitler, and infinitely further from God. On a scale of American presidents, I would rate him about average, maybe a bit below average. Your parents choose to apply different standards to people based soley on their ethnicity? That is up to them I guess, but does not have much bearing on anything I have said. I'm sorry if you have taken anything I have said to be an insult to the Chinese. I certainly have not attempted to dictate what the Chinese can be upset about, nor how they can feel about anything for that matter. I have only pointed out a case of hypocrisy. I have seen no one do any such thing, so you certainly have missed something. Feel free to get upset about whatever you like. You and your fellow Chinese getting upset or not doesn't upset me in the least.
Hey Stupid, If the sizes of deaths, regardless their nature and causes, are so crucial to your assessment of a subject, wouldn't it make your siding with Israel over Palestine moronically hypocritical? The number of Israelis died due to Palestinian suicide bombing and other aggression is several order of magnitude less than the number of innocent and defenseless Israeli babies killed by their mothers. Start your crusade now, Stupid.
Apparently the fuss was about people thinking by "not on purpose" I somehow meant "completely on purpose". I'm a bit confused by that too. I would say Mao was far more complicit in the famine deaths than anyone in the world has been for the flu deaths. You saying I have not provided evidence, when I have provided evidence that no one has countered makes no sense. Given that, I feel there is no way or need to answer these points. My only grudge against Mao is that he is responsible for killing millions of people. I will leave it up to individual readers to decide whether or not to take what I have to say seriously. I will say that the pro-CCP response was not unexpected. The number of dead, regardless of cause and circumstance is not crucial to my assessment. On another note, the Israeli support of abortion is horrible, and I would hope that they will outlaw it. Since I can't even get America to outlaw abortion, I am not optimistic that Israel will do so either. That I have no voice in Israeli internal politics does not help the matter, whereas here I can at least vote for pro-life candiates. That they have decided to allow abortion would not change under any feasible outcome of the Israeli-Palestinian dilemma, so it has no bearing on my thoughts on same. You would have been better off pointing out that the Israelis have killed far more Palestinians than vice versa, though since your initial premise was wrong, it would have made no real difference. BTW, I was just wondering if your method of abbreviating my screenname was intended as a slight or just shorter, not that it matters. If it was the latter, you could further save time by using SM, though most any way of addressing me is fine by me, as I don't get up in arms about the name calling issues. I think Manny still calls me Hydra, if you would prefer that.
What does that prove? Chinese should have no right to protest Japanese atrocities while they have Mao's shrine in BJ? Keep in mind, China was far from an established republic in the 50s and 60s. There was continued conflict. Mao's policy, or better, communist policy, since Mao wasn't always in power during your so-called Mao regime, consolidated power and communist rule, which was responsible for most of the deaths Western scholars cited (putting the validity of numbers issue aside). Of the numbers you cited, how many can you really put your finger on Mao? Now, you think you can put out some numbers, but Chinese can put these numbers into actually names, names they know in their life. Almost all Chinese acknowledge the mess Mao created that was cultural revolution, yet few in China Think of Mao as a Hitler. Taxi drivers in China put his picture in the car for blessing-by themselve. It leaves to Americans like you to say that "It is a bit ironic that the same people up in arms about the Japanese enshrining war criminals have built a humongous shrine to Mao." Chew on that.
I find the part I bolded offensive. You assume to know my own feelings about the subject. That is more than a bit presumptous on your part. Your statement is nonsensical. You make this grandious statement about the Japanese people today that is based on your interpretaion of a small number of Japanese citizens. It's absurd. You can get angry at the government for not having owned up completely to their horrific acts in WWII, you can get angry at distortions in Japanese history books, you can get angry at what could be perceived as less that an adequte apology for Japan's actions during the war. Go right ahead. Just don't make broad generalizations like you are now about the Japanese people, in my opinion. Keep D&D Civil.
It is a list of events/causes and the number of people estimated killed by them. My editorial comment explained why I included it. It is supposed to be evidence that said number of people were killed by those events/causes, nothing more and nothing less. I don't know why people keep talking about having a right to protest or be upset, or being allowed to protest or be upset. No one is stopping you. Protest whatever you want. Get upset by whatever you want. Stalin had tons of public support, but that doesn't mean that he didn't kill millions of people. Mao's popularity is likely in no small part a testament to the party's propaganda machine. It is up to anyone who chooses to say it. I chose to do so. You are welcome to have pictures of Mao, visit his shrine, throw a big party on his birthday, write songs about him, compare him to George Washington, or whatever else you want to do. I will be over here comfortable with my stance that he is no better than the Japanese war criminals that are the subject of this thread.
It was a stupid policy, but it was due more to the corruptions at the lower levels and trying to please their higher levels than anything. China in general was in a dissarray for the 50 years after the end of WWII (which isn't suprsing considering being occupied by Japanese and exploited Europeans for a quite a long time followed by a civil war). The problem with China in those 50 years can not be solely blamed by Mao, the whole country had issues it had to deal with. This is also why majority of the Chinese, abroad or in mainland China aren't that angry with the current government, because in contrast with being exploited by foreigners, and very corrupt governments of the nationalist and manchurians. This slightly less corrupted, more competent government has brought China into a situation better than anything the country has seeing in the last 150+ years. It's the least of many evils (and in some parts good). That's why nationalism and support for the current Chinese government isn't too shabby for a fairly totalitatrian state (well propaganda helped also).
You expressed yourself clearly with plain English about your view. No need to spin with the "language problem" excuse. You are not stopping anyone to protest war criminal worshiping. However, you are trying untirely to tell Chinese people how ironic and unjust for them to protest such crime, simply because in your view, Mao in on par with Stalin and Hitler, at least as bad as those Japanese war criminals, if not worse. Moreover, in your view, Chinese people are the same as those Japanese who denied war crime completely and worshipped executed class A war criminals. You made it clear numerous times in this very thread already. You also said multiple times that you had nothing against Chinese people, do not want to offend Chinese. Yet, in a thread about very offensive crime against Chinese people in general, you felt the urge to come in and hijack the thread completely, repeatedly claim that Chinese people's protest is ironic and unjust. How Mao is equal to the worst evil on earth, how Chinese are just bunch of worst evil supporters, who have no right whatsoever to be offended. Your claim of not wanting to offend Chinese people is no more than those Japanese war criminals' claim to protect Asia from Western colonization by killing tens of millions of innocent people. Action speaks for itself. In a thread about action offensive to Chinese, multiple posters showed you facts, logic, real examples to discuss with you. All you had to repeat was, that they could think whatever they wanted to, and they could tell whatever stories they wanted to, it had no bearing in what you are saying or thinking. Basically, you claimed to discuss a matter experienced, important, and very offensive to Chinese people, but you dismiss any thoughts from Chinese, made your claim and accusation based on your wild imagination that Mao starved millions of civilians on purpose. Right, you don't want to offend Chinese people. You just call Mao Hitler, and Chinese people Hitler supporters. Right, you are not downplaying Japanese war crime or stopping anyone from protesting war criminal worshipping, you just tell Chinese people to shut up, because they are simply worst evil supporter. I normally only judge action based on action itself, but I am just curious, why are you doing this? Let's believe your claim, that you don't intentionally offend Chinese people. To me, the only reasonable possibility left is that you do support those Japanese war crimes, criminals, and criminals worship. Given your track record here, regarding wars and war crimes, it's hardly a surprise.
