Good post. This is exactly what disturbs me. I encourage everyone that is not familiar with that part of history to read this post. Immagine one day, Japanese claim that Pearl Harbor was an act of humanity and muslims deny 9/11 ever happened, how would you react?
The Mao "thing" most China haters use is way overblown. Mao is the father of the PRC, to compare him to the IJA is ludicris and downright laughable. It's because of Mao, the Chinese people have a strong nation they can be proud of. Yes, some of the things such as the GLF were massive failures, but at least they were initiated with good intentions. What were the intentions of the IJA, when they raped countless women and butchered humans like cattle? Comparing Mao to the IJA, that's a wussy copout. It's like if your strict father failed to economically provide for you, and I barged into your house, raped your mother, killed your siblings, stole whatever valubles you had left in your house, and finally razed it to the ground. But, I would refuse to apologize, citing that your father started it because he couldn't protect his family. Do you have any idea how annoying it is? IMO, Mao is a true Chinese hero akin to Ying Zheng. DO NOT insult him by comparing him to the IJA, his CCP resurrected the strength of the chinese people after 2 centuries of foreign abuse. Because of Mao, no outside nation will ever dare to abuse us again. But for argument's sake, Deng XiaoPing helped a lot too, but Mao laid the groundwork for forging the might China has today. If America has George Washington, China has Mao ZeDong.
I am with you for the most part, but you really make Mao look better than he really is, He is after all responsible for one of the darkest decade of Chinese history. But compare him with Japaneses is certainly ludicrous.
I said he was just as bad, not that he did the exact same things. He starved tens of millions of people to death. I guess for you starving to death doesn't compare to being killed by dogs, bio-weapons, or bayonets. For most of us, starving people to death would be tantamount to torturing them to death. That doesn't even get into all of the people, probably in the millions, that he had killed on purpose for political reasons. You are trying to set up a strawman to argue agaist. I never made any claim contrary to what you are saying here. Nor did I ever downplay Japanese war crimes. You are trying to downplay the atrocities committed by Chairman Mao. The Chinese officially building a shrine to Mao is no better than the Japanese officially visiting the shrine with the war criminals, it might be worse because there are many honorable Japanese enshrined in the same place. The Chinese denial of mistreatment of Tibetans is no different than the Japanese denial of war crimes, only the Japanese have at least made some sort of apology (though probably not sufficient). I don't hate the Chinese or the Japanese, which is why I treat them the same; it is you that is rationalizing Chinese behavior while chastising the Japanese for doing the same thing. Your comparison makes no sense though. Lincoln is not responsible for killing millions of his own people. He was not a tyrant. Lincoln is viewed with respect because on balance he did far more good than bad. Mao was a brutal dictator. Saying it is okay to honor Mao for any contributions he made is like saying it would be okay to honor Hitler for giving the world the Volkswagon, on balance there are both far mopre bad than good. Your baseless attacks on me are weak as I have made no insult to the Chinese killed by Japan. Yikes. Someone has been "educated" by the CCP. Mao killed perhaps millions of people who opposed his politics. He further instituted programs that starved millions of people to death. Mao is basically a carbon copy of Stalin, though less competent. If Washington had killed millions of colonists and caused the worst famine in the history of the world, there might be a way to compare them. Try to learn something about Mao that wasn't put out by the CCP, you may not have these warm fuzzy feelings for him.
Does your suprior American education really make you believe Mao intentionally starved his own people to death for political gain?
I think you assumes Chinese don't know their history as well as you do. Come on, the sons and daughters of many died are still alive. Chinese judge Mao based on what he had done to the country, good and bad (yes they know the mess Mao made). Americans judge Mao based solely on the bad things. I think it is the same thing with Castralo. We focus on what a dictator he is, but Cubans also look at the decent education system and social welfare he gives them. It is a small miracle that a country on the path of virtually every hurrican has succeeded in supporting its citizens over so many years, don't you think? My point is, leave it to their own people to judge their own leaders, as long as they were not executed war criminals.
No. I said that he starved tens of millions to death, and SEPERATE FROM THAT also killed many political opponents, perhaps numbering in the millions.
Mao was better than what was before him, Kiang. Kiang embazzled the money US provided him to fight Japanese. Kiang gave up 1/4 of China to Japanese and didn't put up any fight between 1937 to 1939. And Kiang killed political opponents as mercilessly. 80 years after US was founded, americans were still slave masters. China has been founded for 57 years only. Looking from that angel, it is not that bad, is it?
I dont think the Communist government would be here today if they did exterminate millions of their own people, I really dont think the Chinese people are that stupid, that number looks a little too high. But as much as communism blows you have to admit it worked for china.Why else would the administration be complaining about China soo much, if they are not that strong of a nation they would be in the after thought like Cuba.
Puttting "that doesn't even get into all of the people, probably in the millions, that he had killed on purpose for political reasons." aside for a second - I'd love to hear how much you actually know about these things. You centainly sounded like he did it intentionally. You bemoan the starved during GLF and the perioud of 3years of natural diaster (I'm not sure you are even aware of that) isn't put paramount to the atrocities comitted by the Japanese? So by your logic, a leader who is responsible for failed policies - such as great depression which cost many lives, or a unsuccesful warfare - these we have had many - or Katrina, are as guilty as war criminals? That's some powerful logic I'm actually not sure you understand yourself, let alone make convincing argument to others.
Stupid, Saying Mao starved his people to death is akin to saying George W Bush killed all those poor New Orleaners in Katrina, and Ronald Reagan murdered all the AIDS sufferers in the '80s. Just because of a leader failed to do or didn't to enough of something sensible/correct to save people's lives in his country doesn't make him a mass murderer. Millions of Chinese died of starvation not because Mao set out to kill them, but because Mao's policy and idiocy failed them. Oh yes, you did exactly what you are trying to dispute, that is, insulting Chinese victims of the Japanese war crimes by making ludicrous comparison. Like it or not, this is how we Chinese view morons like you.
I recall a while back this very thing happened and I spoke out then and I am speaking out again now. Whatever human rights violations Mao and the PRC govt committed is irrelevant to the Japanese War Shrine issue, IMHO. They are separate topics and if people want to discuss Mao and PRC human rights violations, they should open up new threads not highjack this thread in order to downplay or excuse Japan's war crimes simply because PRC has a less than stellar human rights record. They are simply unrelated! It is simply inappropriate and wrong IMHO just like if we had a Holocaust thread or some such and we decided we were going to hijack it and discuss Israeli human rights abuses instead in that thread! I kindly suggest if people want to weigh in on the Shrine issue, they do so. But if people want to go off on unrelated topics to start new threads instead. IMO, it does a disserve to the victims of Japanese war crimes to link it to PRC human rights abuses since one has nothing to do with the other just like it would be to discuss Israeli human rights abuses when discussing Jewish victims of Nazi war crimes. I can't force anyone to do anything but I consider my suggestion and points to be reasonable ones.
It's about the Japanese not owning up to their history and discrediting their victims in the process. If the US never admitted that slavery existed, then it would've taken a huge bite out of the civil rights movement. It seems obvious in the present tense that freedom for all is right, but it wasn't 200 years ago. A joint Asian history commission is needed to hash out an agreeable and official history so there won't be as many textbook or Shrine controversies. China and Japan have a lot of common economic interests, but they were bitter enemies and there are still people alive from that era. Both have to acknowledge their wounds in order to bury their past and look for the future.
First, I don't claim to be an expert on Chinese history. I couldn't tell you the names of ten Chinese leaders. Information on Mao is widely known and readily availale though. As for the "failed programs", tens of millions of people died. For me, saying, "Oops, I didn't mean for that to happen." doesn't cut it. If Mao was simply an incompetent that accidentally killed tens of millions of people through starvation, then no, he would not be as bad as a war criminal; intention has meaning. That he did that as part of a horrendous record of murder and tyranny just makes him look worse. I would say that the sum of things he did puts Mao in the company of the worst people in history, like Stalin and Hitler. Americans generally don't celebrate Herbert Hoover or Calvin Coolidge (the two presidents that could most easily be blamed for the Great Depression). Our failed presidents are usually allowed to fade into obscurity. Look at the response to Bush from Iraq and Katrina, and those things are nothing compared to the Great Leap Forward. I doubt we build a great shrine to Bush that is visited all of the time by politicians and the populace. Though I was not the first to bring it up, I only mentioned Mao's atrocities because the Chinese, in enshrining Mao, are doing the very same thing they are protesting. What they have to do with each other is in both cases there is a group that has enshrined someone who has done terrible things to the Chinese. I originally posted only one sentance about it, and it was the pro-Chinese response that lead to a more in-depth discussion of Chinese atrocities. Also, I have always been a fan of allowing threads to evolve organically. If there are people who feel that the discussion of Mao has relevence to the topic at hand, they should feel free to discuss it here. Until a mod comes along and says that isn't cricket, your opinion is no more valid than theirs (ours).
For people wanting to discuss the Japanese PM Shrine visits, continue here. For those wanting to discuss Mao, I suggest this new thread Assessment of Mao Zedong Thanks.
Sure thing. Wiki link sources used in above link The sources link show estimates from various sources of the number of people who died under Mao's leadership, some of them ranging as high as 70,000,000 from various causes - purges, famine, etc. while the median of the estimates lies in the 40-50 million range. I'm sure someone will come along and decry all of these sources as somehow biased and that the glorious leader is the best thing that ever happened to China, but there it is.
No, I won't mistaken you for an expert. Now, tell me what kind of information on Mao is "widely known and readily available". I hope you don't refer to works of Jung Chang and Jon Halliday, cause I don't see any evidence you actually know beyond the likes. "intention has meaning"? Hmm.. now I got confuses again. Do you mean he did it intentionally or not? Which one is it? Like I said, it helps if you can convince yourself first. Hauling out names like Stalin and Hitler isn't convincing. FYI, Mao was great at millitary strategy and class struggle, but he had no experience in building an economy. Americans in general don't celebrate Hoover, Coolidge or Bush. But no sane American would put these names next to Osama Bin Ladan - who is responsible for a few thousand American lives - either, isn't it?
